snavek Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Commander Heimberg of UB14 it seems did have reservations about sinking hospital ships, he'd had two opportunites to do so before he sunk the Royal Edward. On 12th August he'd spotted a hospital ship fully lit up, but he didn't attack. The second chance came the next morning with the sighting of the P & O liner Soudan which was being used as a hospital ship and again he passed it over, but this was just before he attacked the Royal Edward. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 14 November , 2006 Share Posted 14 November , 2006 Commander Heimberg of UB14 it seems did have reservations about sinking hospital ships, he'd had two opportunites to do so before he sunk the Royal Edward. On 12th August he'd spotted a hospital ship fully lit up, but he didn't attack. The second chance came the next morning with the sighting of the P & O liner Soudan which was being used as a hospital ship and again he passed it over, but this was just before he attacked the Royal Edward. Keith A little publicized fact: many U-boat commanders despite even been given especially during 1917-1918 the periof of 'unrestricted submarine warfare' the legal authority to sink hospital ships under certain conditions still used their judgement and did NOT attack such ships. Instead throughout the war German subs stopped and searched several British hospital ships! This occurred in the North Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea as well. John (Toronto,Canada) Writing a history of the Llandovery Castle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Anderson Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Hi all, Came across a postcard of the Warilda whilst I was researching my g-fathers service record, he returned to England onboard the Warilda after being wounded in Dec 1916. The postcard shows Warilda sporting a white hull and red crosses. Just wondering what the differance in markings between Hospital Ship and Ambulance Transport would be. I cann't remember the source of the postcard. Regards, Donny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Hi all, Came across a postcard of the Warilda whilst I was researching my g-fathers service record, he returned to England onboard the Warilda after being wounded in Dec 1916. The postcard shows Warilda sporting a white hull and red crosses. Just wondering what the differance in markings between Hospital Ship and Ambulance Transport would be. I cann't remember the source of the postcard. Regards, Donny From the look of it and the perspective along with the printing on the front I strongly suspect that it is a mid-war that is around 1916 or early 1917 official, semi-official photo card produced by one or two designated Southampton photo pc publishers such as San Bride etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 17 November , 2006 Share Posted 17 November , 2006 The Llandovery Castle was a DELIBERATE If ANYONE has ANYTHING on the BRITISH MERCHANT MARINE CREW especially I would love to hear from them! John Hi John, my interest is casualties from the Island of Anglesey, North Wales. I am aware of two men who served as crew on the Llandovery Castle and died in the attack: Able Seaman JOHN OWEN, age 26, Next of Kin, mother Anne Griffith (formerly Owen) living at Penras, Penlon, Newborough (south-west Anglesey). His name is on the village War memorial at The Pritchard Jones Institute, Newborough, and also on Newborough parish's panel on the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch in Bangor, Gwynedd (commemorates all war dead from the 6 counties of N.Wales). He was a Welsh Calvinistic Methodist (aka Welsh Presbyterian) by religious denomination, and attended the chapel in the village (chapel lost 9 men in WW1). Able Seaman WILLIAM OWENS, age 41, Son of the late Thomas and Jane Owens, born at Llanfairpwll (that village with the extraordinarily long name for tourist consumption, on the shores of the Menai Straits); but not commemorated locally at all, apparently, which suggests he'd moved away from the area. Both are commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial to the missing of the merchant fleets. let me know if I can be of any further help. Sincerely, LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 21 November , 2006 Share Posted 21 November , 2006 Hi John, my interest is casualties from the Island of Anglesey, North Wales. I am aware of two men who served as crew on the Llandovery Castle and died in the attack: Able Seaman JOHN OWEN, age 26, Next of Kin, mother Anne Griffith (formerly Owen) living at Penras, Penlon, Newborough (south-west Anglesey). His name is on the village War memorial at The Pritchard Jones Institute, Newborough, and also on Newborough parish's panel on the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch in Bangor, Gwynedd (commemorates all war dead from the 6 counties of N.Wales). He was a Welsh Calvinistic Methodist (aka Welsh Presbyterian) by religious denomination, and attended the chapel in the village (chapel lost 9 men in WW1). Able Seaman WILLIAM OWENS, age 41, Son of the late Thomas and Jane Owens, born at Llanfairpwll (that village with the extraordinarily long name for tourist consumption, on the shores of the Menai Straits); but not commemorated locally at all, apparently, which suggests he'd moved away from the area. Both are commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial to the missing of the merchant fleets. let me know if I can be of any further help. Sincerely, LST_164 Thank you for your kindness in helping out with these local commemorations of victims. By the time the sinking occurred war weariness had certainly set in and when the war ended fairly quickly shortly later and with all the post-war problems including the influenza epidemnic etc....the story and it's aftermath have been grossly and unfairly forgotten. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 21 November , 2006 Share Posted 21 November , 2006 For those of you interested in some graphic representations and propaganda on hospital ships see the website "Hospital Ship International (HSI)" and the hyperlink just on 1914-1918 Hospital Ship incidents John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 21 November , 2006 Share Posted 21 November , 2006 Ahoj! "Britain and its allies held that hospital ships, which were clearly marked (red cross and lights etc) should not be molested because their's was a humanitarian role," Interesting statement ... how about the pirating of the German hospital ship Ophelia? Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 21 November , 2006 Share Posted 21 November , 2006 Ahoj! "Britain and its allies held that hospital ships, which were clearly marked (red cross and lights etc) should not be molested because their's was a humanitarian role," Interesting statement ... how about the pirating of the German hospital ship Ophelia? Borys To the British Admiralty the Ophelia was on a false mission of intelligence gathering rather than search and rescue when she was detained (captured) by British destroyers in 1914. Overreacting one might say by BOTH sides perhaps. The Ophelia had NO survivors on board though that does NOT mean that she was not looking for them. To the British though the powerful radio communications gear meant only one thing (which of course is not necessarily the case). In all probability the suspicion or fog of war caused a misinterpertation by the British of the Ophelia's case: in short an honest error compounded and made much worse by subsequent war time legal authorities wishing to justify an accomplished fact of seizure of a protected enemy vessel. Why would the German Admiralty send out a lone hospital ship to search for survivors knowing that at that time of year and in the conditions of the waters that the chances of finding survivors would have been minimal? Hope this helps somewhat. Do you have other information? I know that the Germans issued a Parliament Paper from the Reichstag which I have and references to the Ophelia's case will be found in Parliamentary Papers from Great Britain as well so the case was fairly well publicized and covered. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 21 November , 2006 Share Posted 21 November , 2006 Ahoj! I learnt about the Ophelia from Scheer's memoires. "Why would the German Admiralty send out a lone hospital ship to search for survivors knowing that at that time of year and in the conditions of the waters that the chances of finding survivors would have been minimal?" And what else were they send apart from "lone hospital ship"? A Schlachtgeschwader of the HSF? Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 22 November , 2006 Share Posted 22 November , 2006 Ahoj! I learnt about the Ophelia from Scheer's memoires. "Why would the German Admiralty send out a lone hospital ship to search for survivors knowing that at that time of year and in the conditions of the waters that the chances of finding survivors would have been minimal?" And what else were they send apart from "lone hospital ship"? A Schlachtgeschwader of the HSF? Borys The Germans could have communicated their mission to the British easily. Either the individual ship or German naval authorities elsewhere thereby largely covering or explaining the hospital ship's actions. This was NOT done. Consider that hospital ships were never designed as search and rescue ships but more as amublance transports for fairly larger bodies of men. Again I think honest errors probably on both sides, compounded by possibly deliberate legal obfuscation and an earnest desire to use such an error for propaganda purposes on BOTH sides has obscured this incident. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomeus Posted 13 April , 2008 Share Posted 13 April , 2008 The Llandovery Castle was a DELIBERATE attack as the sub commander recognized his target during very good weather in daylight as a properly reocgnized British hospital ship. Under the pretense that Llandovery was carrying unauthorized military personnel specifically American aviators he torpedoed the ship. When he proabably realized that he had exceeded orders and worse probably had made a mistake he made a deliberate attempt to blot out any evidence that would contradict his story. He therefore ran down and used the sub's gun to blow lifeboats out of the water. I am writing a in-depth history of this particular event. If ANYONE has ANYTHING on the BRITISH MERCHANT MARINE CREW especially I would love to hear from them! John Hi John, My ggfather, Robert SHARP, was boatswain on the HMHS Llandovery Castle, when it was sunk off Fastnet, June, 1918. I would love to be able to read your history of this event. Robert, was born in Shetland, 1867 at Cuppister, Yell and he came from a family of sea-farers. His brothers were Master Mariners and his nephew was Rudolph SHARP of the Lusitania, Lancastria, Mauretania and the Laconia, on which he lost his life in 1942. Kind Regards, Pam Eustice nee SHARP, South Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 14 April , 2008 Share Posted 14 April , 2008 For GLENART CASTLE and REWA the following pieces in The National Archives may be of interest: ADM 1/8511/19 ADM 137/3253 ADM 137/3424 CO 323/785/68 ADM 1/8529/183 There was a documentary made about these ships a couple of years or so ago; I believe it was shown round Plymouth & points west but am not entirely sure. That it was made I do know, because I gave a hand with some of the research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dally Posted 20 April , 2008 Share Posted 20 April , 2008 The account of the trial of several of the officers of the U-boat makes 'interesting' reading: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/lcastl10.htm The captain didn't turn up for the trial, leaving his subordinates to carry the can. This reminds me of way in which the Kormoran decoyed HMAS Sydney and then machine-gunned the survivors so that there would be no witnesses to an act of piracy. "Who Sank the Sydney" makes a pretty water-tight case. Of course the Japanese submariners did one better by taking eighty-odd women and children out into the Sumatra Straits and then submerging, leaving them to the sharks. What a fascinating thread, (as are so many). I've just read the account of the trial as quoted above and I wondered if the whereabouts of the U Boat Captain, Captain Patzig, was ever discovered and did he ever face a court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirkpitt289 Posted 16 June , 2008 Share Posted 16 June , 2008 On the topic of Hospital ships. Has anyone here ever read (or better yet have) the booklet published in 1917 and titled "The War On Hospital Ships"? Supposedly it talks about the Germans attack on the HMHS Britannic and other Hospital ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 28 September , 2008 Share Posted 28 September , 2008 I just saw a British documentary on NTV about the Glenart Castle and the Rewa, which lie 11 miles apart in the Bristol Channel. Both were dived first time and are beyond reach for non professional divers in 72 and 65 meter depth. It is said that the British hospital marked ships under the protection of the Geneva and Hague Convention often carried military equipment on their way to the continent, when not transporting wounded soldiers. In the case of the clearly Red Cross marked Rewa the diving team found 18 pound artillery shells in metal cases during the first dive beneath some debris in a cargo bay. A recently disclosed 1915 diary from a British sailor now in possession of the Army Medical Service, reveals they also transported armed Army personnel, a military vehicle and military supplies to Lemnos and Alexandria. This is clearly a deliberate violation of the Geneva Convention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 29 September , 2008 Share Posted 29 September , 2008 Hi, GLENART CASTLE was on its way from Newport to Brest when it was sunk by UC 56. It seems that KIESEWETTER (commander UC 56) attacked in the early morning with bad visibility. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 29 September , 2008 Share Posted 29 September , 2008 Glenart Castle see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted 30 September , 2008 Share Posted 30 September , 2008 Are you surprised ? I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 30 September , 2008 Share Posted 30 September , 2008 Are you referring to my previous post? If yes: me neither! And - its about time after more than 90 years with more and more facts uncovered by British scientists/ researchers, that the holy British myths of noble warfare under the Union Jack are busted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 1 October , 2008 Share Posted 1 October , 2008 Hi all, Relevant to this thread is an interesting book "The Pirate's Progress: A Short History of the U-Boat" by William Archer (originally published in 1918 but reprinted in 2002) (pp. 86-100). Included is information concerning the attacks on the Asturian, the Portugal, Britannic, Braemar Castle, Gloucester Castle, Donegal, and Lanfranc. There are bits of info on other attacked 'Relief Ships' (including the Belgian Relief Ships) in the chapter as well. If there is interest, I can see what is in there on those ships and post it to the forum. Take care, -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 2 October , 2008 Share Posted 2 October , 2008 CHRIS / ALL, here awards to crew for assistance to Hospital Ships - many more to come, will PM them or put them on the GWF if you / others wish. Info scanty at times but does give NAME of H.S !! ANDREWS Frederick J WSA 937 Skipper RNR 80E065 Hastings Castle Rear Admiral Cecil F. Thursby 14.07.16 Gazetted Evacuation Serbian Army & Italian Troops from Albania Dec-Feb. 1915-16 DSC Displayed good seamanship and gallantry in rescuing over 100 survivors from the mined Hospital Ship "Marechiaro", on the 21st February, 1916. They also rescued 10 survivors of the mined Trawler "Maranbac" on the 25th February, 1916. See also Skipper W.J. Dow - 80E065 FRY Harry C.C N/E Lt. RNR 80E065 N/E Rear Admiral Cecil F. Thursby 14.07.16 Gazetted Evacuation Serbian Army & Italian Troops from Albania Dec-Feb. 1915-16 DSC Was Group Officer at Durazzo in succession to S/Lt. Deakin, R.N.R. Carried out most valuable minesweeping and escorting duties, and rescued many survivors from the Hospital Ship "Marechiaro" and the trawler "Maranbac". In charge of a group of drifters during the evacuation of the Italian troops from Durazzo. He handled his drifters most creditably under fire while conveying troops from the shore to the transports. Sadsac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tafski Posted 2 October , 2008 Share Posted 2 October , 2008 Are you referring to my previous post? If yes: me neither! And - its about time after more than 90 years with more and more facts uncovered by British scientists/ researchers, that the holy British myths of noble warfare under the Union Jack are busted aye and a few of yours as well tafski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted 2 October , 2008 Share Posted 2 October , 2008 I've spent too much time digging through primary sources to believe either side had a monopoly of morality. And the stench of double standards is often overwhelming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 2 October , 2008 Share Posted 2 October , 2008 I agree with Clio. I think that noble warfare and the Uboat war are, or should be, rarely seen in the same sentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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