Hospital Ship Sinkings

[sadsac]

CHRIS, here two awards to `Hospital Ships' meant to put them in PM, but `Y'er they be' ;

SUNNUCKS Stephen R N/E S/Lt. RNR 85U041 DRUID

C-in-C Home Fleets 23.05.17 Gazetted

Hospital Ship Salta & H.M.S. P. 26 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

For recognion of his gallant conduct in rescuing survivors from the Hospital Ship "Salta", and H.M.P.B. 26, which had struck mines. his handling of his ship in heavy weather and taking her alongside the wreck of P.26 was a splendid piece of seamanship.

He was in the ship on the above occasion.

He set the ship's company a very fine example.

INNES Francis N/E Lt. RNR 85U041 DRUID

C-in-C Home Fleets 23.05.17 Gazetted

Hospital Ship Salta & H.M.S. P. 26 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

For recognion of his gallant conduct in rescuing survivors from the Hospital Ship "Salta", and H.M.P.B. 26, which had struck mines. his handling of his ship in heavy weather and taking her alongside the wreck of P.26 was a splendid piece of seamanship.

He was in the ship on the above occasion.

He set the ship's company a very fine example.

Sadsac

[sadsac]

CHRIS, yet two more H.S's ;

BOLSTER Francis MB., BA Cdr. Surgeon RN 88X643

R.N. Hospital Chatham M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E

Post War CMG

This officer has a very good record. During the war he has served in the Hospital Ship "China", and H.M.S. "Highflyer", "Leviathan", and "Warrior". He was present at the Battle of Jutland in H.M.S. "Warrior", and was recommended by his commanding officer, for his services there.

On the recommendation of my predecessor he was awarded the Gold Medal of the London Medico-Chirurgical Society. His conduct in operating on, and removing the wounded during the sinking of "Warrior" at the Battle of Jutland is deserving of recognition.

JEANS Thomas T MB Cdr. Surgeon RN 88X642

H.M. Hospital Ship Soudan M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E

Post War CMG

This officer served during the war in H.M.S. "Euraylus", "Swiftsure", R.N. Barracks Portsmouth (in charge) and Hospital Ship "Soudan". He has always carried out his duties with great zeal and ability. He has compiled a General Order Book, for use in Hospital Ships which has been much appreciated. He was P.M.O. for the Suez Canal Naval Defences against Turkish attack in February, 1915. Was present when Syrna Forts were bombarded and in the Dardanelles Landing 1915, and did good work during the evacuation of "River Clyde". Surgeon of Monarch S.A. 1899 - 1900. Served with Naval Guns under Commander W. Grant, R.N.

Sadsac

[sadsac]

CHRIS, and yet boringly two more ;

DUCK William A.S N/E Lt. Surgeon RN 88X656 Biarritz

M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E Post War OBE(M)

This officer has served during the war in Hospital Ship "Delta" and H.M.S. "Biarritz". He is a thoroughly capable and reliable officer, and has shown great zeal, and ability in the performance of his duties and is very hard working. Their Lordships' expressed their appreciation of the good work done by this officer on the Adriatic Station.

Was Mentioned in Despatches for distinguished service in War Area.

DUDLEY Sheldon F N/E Lt.Cdr. Surgeon RN 88X652 Hospital Ship Agadir

M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E Post War OBE(M)

This officer has served during the war at Chatham Hospital, Dunkirk and Hospital Ship "Agadir".

He is an excellent officer, with special knowledge of veneral treatment, and has more than once been recommended for special promotion.

Sadsac

[John Gilinsky]

1) There is a book just about to be published if it isn't already in England just on hospital ship sinkings and attacks during ww1. I believe it is just over 200 pages in length. I am sure one or more members can provide an additional reply outlining this new book's ISBN and bibliographical data. I think it is being published by Pen and Sword.

2) There are great controversies still about hospital ships partly due to the wartime propaganda efforts of all sides and partly due to the sheer isolationism of the attacks - that is ship to ship.

3) The Llandovery Castle case is perhaps arguably the single most famous hospital ship attack of all time considering its use/abuse as a major international legal humanitarian law applicable in naval armed conflict precedent.

4) The hospital ship atrocity propaganda for which such ships were clearly eminently suited for if quite interesting.

John

Toronto Canada

[Signals]

Hi All,

with all the talk of Hospital attacks by submarines, no one seems to have mentioned E21's effort, they can only thank their lucky stars the British torpedoes were not as efficient as their German counterparts.

Cheers DB.

[sadsac]

Chris, two more ;

PARKES Oscar MB Lt. Surgeon RN 88X668

Intelligence Division Admiralty M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E Post War OBE(M)

Entered February, 1915, and has served at Plymouth and Chatham Hospitals, Hospital Ships "Somali" and "Karapara", and was specially attached to the Naval Intelligence Division of the Admitalty for special work on account of his knowledge of German ships. He is an able officer and has carried out his duties with the greatest zeal and ability.

MOSSON Albert C FRCS Lt. Surgeon RN 88X666

R.N. Auxiliary Hospital Larbert M.D.G 22.08.19 N/E Post War OBE(M)

This officer entered the R.N. on the 5th August, 1914, and has served continuously until demobilised on the 21st February, 1919. He has served at Haslar Hospital, H.M.S. "Zealandia", Hospital Ships "Somali" and "Karapara", H.M.S. "Centurion", R.N. Auxiliary Hospitals, Greenwich and Larbert. He is a sound operating surgeon and has done excellent service in this connection during his various appointments.

Sadsac

[Gary Charles]

I was surprised to hear that an English submarine had torpedoed a hospital ship. Now I learn that E21 torpedoed a clearly marked Austrian hospital ship. Luckily for all concerned the torpedo failed to detonate. Does anyone have further information on this? Who was the E21 commander? Was he deciplined for his action?

Victory.

[John Gilinsky]

Are you sitting down? British submarines made at least a few attacks (as well as respecting clearly marked Red Crescent vessels) on Ottomman Red Crescent marked hospital vessels/boats during the Gallipoli campaign. I believe that a book that came out on the Imperial Ottomman Navy refers to some of these attacks while books on submarines operating during the 1915 campaign contain further details.

John

[Signals]

Hi Victory,

The British Officer was Carylon-Britton, I've seen his first name listed as Hugh and also Henry, either way i have not been able to buy his papers from the Nat Archives. He served with my grandfather prior to E21. I doubt that he would have been disciplined, as more than anything the issue would have been kept quiet.

On the 30-6-1918 E21 torpedoed and sank the small Austrian transport Vila, and when her escorting torpedo-boat TB35 lowered her boats to pick up survivors, Carylon-Britton ordered his stern tube fired at the warship while she was carrying out her humanitarian duty. The torpedo was easily avoided, but this is something the British would accused the Germans of doing that was unnecessary.

On the 6 of August 1918 Carylon-Britton definitely identified Baron Call as a hospital ship at 0530 hrs and did not attack. At 1320 hrs he sighed her again and said it was the same ship or similar class to the one sighted in the morning. He then proceeded to fire his two bow tubes and thought they missed, but one struck and failed to explode. The British admitted it was them when the Austrians protested, but as usual lamely said it was justified because the Baron Call was not properly identified I.A.W. the Hague Convention. The question is though, he had identified her in the morning and as i said, he was just lucky that the British torpedoes were not as efficient as their German counterparts.

So for the sake of a chuckle, i guess i should ask if the British have a deliberate policy against Hospital Ships.

Cheers DB

[sadsac]

Darren, John, Victory, here's your man - note ; CARLYON, and HENRY is confirmed (NL) ;

CARLYON-BRITTON Henry C N/E Lt. RN 82O053 S/M E.21

Commodore A.H. Kelly N/E N/E

In Submarines Operations 1918 N/E

On 30.06.18 at 3.23. p.m., he attacked and sank an enemy steamer of about 2,000 tons, heavily laden, with an awning spread aft, as if passengers were being carried. The vessel was hit by two torpedoes, and sank at once; survivors were rescued by an Austrian Torpedo Boat.

During this cruise "E.21" passed 6 times through the minefield South east from Kapri Island, inside of which the vessel was sunk. She also examined Port St. Gergio in Lissa Island, and passed through the intense minefield between Brazza Lassina Islands, where she passed over 24 hours in the confined waters between these Islands and the mainland.

I consider that the spirit of initiative and enterprise shewn by this officer is much to be admired, and the efficiency of his submarine is shewn by the successful attack carried out.

This officer has previously been employed on difficult missions inside the minefields North of Cattaro, and for that reason was selected for this patrol.

Whatever he may / maynot have done re Hospital Ship & TB Boat, it seems he was certainly no slouch when it came to slipping thro minefields !!

Regards to all, Sadsac

[Signals]

Hi Sadsac,

totally agree with your comments on the skill of the man and his crew, and for that matter, anyone who went out in a submarine in WW1. I'm more commenting on a system that would avoid the knowledge of such things happening. Post WW1 there were many items i have read, such as BY GUESS AND BY GOD, that like to criticise the Germans for attacking ships in the process of picking up survivors, the book refers to the Cressy, Hogue, and Aboukir incident in 1914. But when you go to direct source documents such as patrol reports you can see the British would do the same. And being war they should have just as Carlyon-Britton did. Again with the hospital ship, the system turned it around to make out the Austria had done the wrong thing by not identifying their ship. Did he make a genuine mistake, i have no idea, only he would know.

Have you been able find Carylon-Britton's papers on the archives site? Maybe they haven't been put on the sytem as yet.

Cheers DB.

[Clio]

I differentiate between that has been likely to have been milled by the intelligence services and that which reaches us in a 'raw' state. For example, I rely upon the unadorned data contained in a ships log/KTB, wheras I tend to be dismissive of the monthly auxilliary patrol returns.

When dealing with the sinking of civilian vessels or hospital ships, I have learned the hard way. Propaganda forms a thick and sometimes impenetrable miasma between the researcher and the truth. The latter is far more likely to be contained within pithy board of trade papers, insurance documentation, shipyard records etc, than accounts churned out for public consumption. If something could be propagandised, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would be propagandised. This is never more apt than in attempts to sieve out facts relating to the sinking of hospital ships.

Try comparing board of trade papers with 'official accounts' and you will soon see what I mean. The propaganda war did not end in 1918 either.

[John Gilinsky]

Clio: Thanks for your very apt and wisely framed opinions which I agree with. The propaganda campaigns generally but of course of the Great War are especially problematical when separating historical facts from everthing else.

One intriguing point which you do imply is that while this occurs much of the propaganda was based on historical facts.

John

Toronto

Canada

[John Gilinsky]

Clio: Ships logs are not necessarily known for their full blown accounts or narrative styles. They present their own and very similiar generic problems of factual accuracy. Moreover, your referal to the BT papers is also somewhat problematical: clerks, middle-managers or administrators sitting in London or some other British port far away and frequently very far away indeed from the primary actors and the scenes of the action(s) may NOT have been the BEST documentarians for what happened. HOWEVER, they may be valuable contemporary reflective, official managers of fundamental elements encompassing incidents: ship's costs, ships repair costs, damage reports, insurance adjustments etc.... Ships returning from distances after being allegedly attacked may have suffered normal wear and tear through rougher weather worsening and thus altering damages and thus distorting such damages. The crew themselves (ship's captain?) may rarely have even wilfully tampered with the "evidence(though I doubt this happened)." Reporting deadlines, bureaucratic pressures to save monies and political censorship amongst other factors must have played a less than ideal for accuracy role in influencing the writers of these BT papers.

Can you perhaps give us 2 or 3 specific examples where BT papers clearly are more accurate than say the ship company's papers or the propaganda?

John

Toronto

[sadsac]

Darren, NO have not found anything re CARLYON-Britton, mainly because I have not looked.

Have not looked in PRO itself - must do sometime.

Perhaps the LOG will give some info. Will look on next visit.

CLIO, agree with all - 1st casualty of war is truth - can't have the `herd' knowing what was going on.

You know those nasty Germans dressed as NUNS and then slaughtered Nuns, children, all who came their way - well, went with the `square heads' !!!

Gott mit Uns !! God with Us !!!

Sadsac

[Lörscher]

Hi all,

want to add one small detail to the BARON CALL attack:

she carried 867 ill soldiers during her voyage, so the question is what might have happened if....

Oliver

[Clio]

I only have one sourced example in front of me at the moment (because I am away from home - and its slightly off-topic so forgive me).

Consult any published source purporting to cover the fate of U 61, including the monthly auxiliary patrol reports, and they talk about debris and human remains appearing to confirm a destroyed U-boat.

Contrast this with the information given by the actual log of U 61:

Log P51 - 26th March

‘08.30 Smalls abeam - 2 miles 51.48N 05.32W.

08.45 Sighted enemy submarine 2 points on port bow, 3 - 400 yards

Helm jammed at 20 degrees of starboard. In consequence forced to turn 32 points and

missed submarine

08.55 Dropped 3 DCs in vicinity submarine submerged and probably destroyed him as air rising in vicinity.’

ADM 53/56577

Had human remains or debris been discovered, the Log would have surely recorded them. P 51 remained in the vicinity for a couple of days.

A seemingly confirmed sinking does not seem quite so certain now. Indeed I can confirm that no U-boat wreck has ever been found in the location given in the log. It is my interpretation that for propaganda purposed the actual report has been creatively embroidered to provide evidence of a sinking that never happened. A factual encounter is made the point of departure for a propaganda exercise.

Even within the parameters of what passes for official reports, you have to be extraordinarily judicious.

[sadsac]

CLIO, two awards for crew P.51 `Action with E. Subs - note not sinking !!

This for `your' attack ;

WHITTLE George R N/E Gunner RN 83P274 P.51

Vice Admiral Milford Haven 07.06.18 Gazetted

Action with enemy submarines 26.03.18 Mentioned in Despatches

Depth charged an enemy submarine on the 26th March, 1918.

Their Lordships' consider that Lieutenant Murray exhibited great promptness and decision in his method of attack. For services in the destruction of an enemy submarine on the 26.03.18.

Showed prompt and seamanlike action on enemy being sighted.

Was Officer of the Watch at the time the submarine was sighted and immediately rang "Full Speed" and altered course to ram.

MURRAY William N/E Lt. RNR 83P274 P.51

Vice Admiral Milford Haven 07.06.18 Gazetted

Action with enemy submarines 26.03.18 DSC

Depth charged an enemy submarine on the 26th March, 1918.

Their Lordships' consider that Lieutenant Murray exhibited great promptness and decision in his method of attack.

Regards Sadsac

[John Gilinsky]

In response to the descendant of the boatswain aboard the Llandovery Caste:

Patzig lived, was never brought to justice, served mainly as a training officer under Hitler in WW2 and died in 1984 well into his 90's!

John

Toronto

Canada

[Guest]

I'm seeking info on a Hospital ship being sunk in the port of Cattaro late May or June 1917. All references I can find seem to concentrate on allied losses. Can anybody assist or refer me elsewhere, please?

[John Gilinsky]

Considering the time and place it must have been an Austro-Hungarian hospital ship. Plenty of good recent published information and documentaiton on AH hospital ships. Baron Call and Elektra were just 2 major ships. Also not sure the vessel might have been SUNK: it might have just been damaged, beached, etc...

John

Toronto

[2ndCMR]

....its about time after more than 90 years with more and more facts uncovered by British scientists/ researchers, that the holy British myths of noble warfare under the Union Jack are busted

Well, there's nice little shellburst that should send the timid pals running for distracting tangents to introduce, while others rush to agree in the hope of maintaining peace in our time!

I wonder what "myths" those would be? Perhaps someone will enumerate a few of them for us?

Shipping ammunition in hospital ships? Oh, horrors! Why, it's worse than the Rape of Belgium, poison gas, zeppelins bombing civilians, flamethrowers, the Llandovery Castle....yes, it's an outrage and a violation of the Geneva Convention!

We've had the happy anti-Nazis in their Boot (Funny they never show up in U-boat memoirs those anti-Nazis) and now we're getting the Red Baron rehab project. Propaganda? Seems to be alive and well in der Vaterland.

Oh, it gets worse, RN submarine(s) fired torpedoes at an Austrian hospital ship in 1918. Oh, the cads! And this was after how many British hospital ships had been sunk, and in the most infamous case, the survivors deliberately murdered? (By no means the only such case either)

By the way, does anyone know how to say "I'm sorry" in German, as in "I'm sorry/I apologize for what I did"?

Answer: You can't. There is only "es/das tut mir leid", "It makes me sad", or "Entschuldigung (sie mir)", "Pardon/excuse me".

Interesting, these little cultural markers...

[Signals]

Hi 2ndCMR,

nice reply, i actually would like to see more on this forum of what is deemed the other sides view for the debate reasons, hearing just one side of matters certainly doesn't give you a balanced view. This does not mean people should be labeled as favouring a certain side. The attempted torpedoing of an Austrian Hospital ship is of interest to some as people are rarely made aware of such matters.

Red Baron, what do you want to know about that one? The British claimed he was seen going full throttle into the ground, so one must guess the engine from his Triplane in the IWM belongs to another aircraft due it being intact. So what's the real story here? The Germans and Australian stories certainly match up! Anti Nazi's in WW1 U-boats?

But i do agree, Sorry is the hardest thing to say, ask the Zulus, Aborigines, Maoris, and Boer familes to name just a few, but i guess for some reason none of this counts in the moral high ground war, wrong time and place.

Good to see the propaganda continuing.

Cheers.

[John Gilinsky]

Turkish Red Crescent vessels in the GW / WWI were torpedoed, stopped and searched.

Austro-Hungarian hospital ships were torpedoed, mined and aerially bombed (eg. of last August 1918)

German hospital ships were captured (prize of war - OPHELIA captured and declared a prize of war in Oct 1914 TABORA was also captured in spring 1916 in what formerly was German East Africa).

Simply because the Allies controlled by far the far greater shorelines and far flung colonies AND definitely had a better and greater propaganda machine hospital ship atrocity stories AGAINST the Allied hospital ships have come down to represent the presumably ONLY real violation of international law at the time etc....

John

Toronto

Canada

[2ndCMR]

Hi 2ndCMR,

nice reply, i actually would like to see more on this forum of what is deemed the other sides view for the debate reasons, hearing just one side of matters certainly doesn't give you a balanced view. This does not mean people should be labeled as favouring a certain side. The attempted torpedoing of an Austrian Hospital ship is of interest to some as people are rarely made aware of such matters.

Red Baron, what do you want to know about that one? The British claimed he was seen going full throttle into the ground, so one must guess the engine from his Triplane in the IWM belongs to another aircraft due it being intact. So what's the real story here? The Germans and Australian stories certainly match up! Anti Nazi's in WW1 U-boats?

But i do agree, Sorry is the hardest thing to say, ask the Zulus, Aborigines, Maoris, and Boer familes to name just a few, but i guess for some reason none of this counts in the moral high ground war, wrong time and place.

Good to see the propaganda continuing.

Cheers.

I agree. It is most instructive to hear how little attitudes have changed in some quarters; that is for those who care to learn about why wars happen.

I'm certainly interested to hear about the misdeeds of 'our side', however a sense of proportion and perspective; "fairplay" as it used to be called, means that those events will be measured against the PRIOR misdeeds of the enemies, which both provoked, and it could be argued rendered invalid the various treaties that had proscribed many of those 'misdeeds'.

What I'm rather tired of is the timorous cringers who let pass insults and misinformation because they are either too apathetic to care or too cowardly to speak up for the truth.

Never heard any account claiming richtofen flew full barrel into the ground. The photos of the wreckage show the engine in good condition. What story are you claiming is incorrect? The only disagreement is over who shot him down as far as I know. My reference was to propaganda movies designed to depict our late enemies in a favourable light and their variance from the known facts.

As for saying sorry, well, you forgot the Opium Wars old chap, those two canny Scots Jardine & Mathieson got you into, with the help of Indian opium producers and their London bankers. Only the Japanese also made drug pushing in China a matter of policy. Nasty little blot on the record that, but measured against the whole of the British imperial effort, you still come out ahead.

As for the various aboriginals, given the temper of the times, I would say they did pretty well, and certainly as time goes on, they do better and better, don't they? If it was all so bad they wouldn't have been so willing to fight for the Empire would they?

I wonder if a Patzig in the Royal Navy would have gone on to remployment, a safe retirement and an honoured old age? What do you think?