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Steve Bramley

Eamon de Valera

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markinbelfast
QUOTE(BatterySergeantMajor @ Dec 5 2005, 05:16 PM)

And that send his firemen to Belfast after it had been bombed.

Erwin

the same one that begged for the IRA terrorist Williams not to be hanged after he murdered a policeman?

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wig

Ken Devit remarked that it would be nice to know what happened to Cadet Makay

He appears as Lt. Col. G.F. Makay writing to Devalera from his home in Jersey, in 1959.

The letter, which is reproduced in Diarmaid Ferriter's book "Judging Dev" was written to congratulate Dev on becoming President of Ireland

and to remind him of their time together when McKay, as a cadet, was held prisoner at Bolands Mill.

the letter makes no mention of McKay being handed Dev's pistol or of being asked to hand it on to Dev's son Vivian. In fact it makes clear that McKay was also

arrested by the British soldiers and marched off to the RDS holding area.

On that basis it is impossible to believe the story about Dev's pistol. McKay's letter seeks to remind Dev of his existence during that period and it is quite

inconceivable that it would fail to mention such an important memory or incident.

I don't believe the strory of the pistol. I reckon one of the British soldiers took it as a souvenier. Probably Hitzen himself.

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Mr_Sunray
Shooting the leaders of the Easter Rising is one of the stupidest things Britain did in Ireland.

Surely it was the ill judged launch of Spud-u-Like by Sir Robert Peel in 1845!

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SMG65

Lets not let this post become a 'blame game' for who caused the troubles in Ireland.

We could end up back to the Scotti tribe from Ireland invading Pictland and defeating the Picts to rename the land Scotland in the Dark Ages.

Lets focus on the Great War period.

Sean

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Mr_Sunray
Lets focus on the Great War period.

Sean

The Easter Uprising was during WWI! It was caused by the little known Easter Bunny Famine and prompted ordinary Irish subjects to storm the post office in the vain effort to confiscate the Cadburys Creme Eggs destined for the troops on the frontline.

Steve

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wig

There are some serious students of the war on here Mr. Sunray. If you want to make purile adolescent comments go and visit facebook.

wig

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whkay

Well said sir..

Back to De Valera, can someone please tell me why he was spared the firing squad when Clarke was not?

Mark

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Mr_Sunray
Well said sir..

Back to De Valera, can someone please tell me why he was spared the firing squad when Clarke was not?

Mark

De valera was held in a seperate prison to Pádraig Pearse, James Connolly so was not scheduled to be executed first. His status as an American citizen was also under question which delayed any moves to punish him. Luckily, for De valera, by this time the British ceased executions as it was felt that the point had been made.

I can do serious history too, I just don't care for The history of The British Empire by Sinn Feinn.

Sunray Out

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whkay

Fair enough and thanks for that however I always thought Clarke was an American citizen? So why did they shoot him?

Cheers

Mark

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wig

The American secretary of State was asked to intervene in the Devalera case and plead clemancy because of his US citizenship. He replied

"The fact that DeValera may be an American citizen constitues no reason for clemency, or for a request by this Government for clemency on the part of the British.

There appears to be nothing to indicate that his trial was not fair or that he was in any way discriminated against and there would therefor appear to be no reason

for action by this department on behalf of DeValera."

The prosecuting barrister later wrote insisting DeValera's American Connections played no part in the trial process and were not mentioned at all.

The prosecutor thought DeValera was not one of the ring leaders. For that reason he was tried much later than the actual ringleaders and by the time he

was sentanced Asquith, the then British prime minister had stopped the executions of anyone who was not a ringleader. i.e. only those who had signed

the Proclamation were to go before the firing squads.

As for Mr. Sunray, many British soldiers, particularly Sherwood Foresters, who had been in training for the trenches died on the Dublin streets during the rising - and many more,

after the fighting in Dublin went on to fight and die in the trenches............This forum is one of the few places they are still remembered and we could do without your crappy comments.

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whkay

Thanks for that wig..

Mark

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SMG65

I find De Valera a complex character in his stand during the Second World War.

He maintained Irish neutrality when surely he must have known that if Hitler had conquered Britain he would then have invaded Ireland.

He then allowed the Irish Fire Service to aid Belfast, an act which the Germans could have seen as aiding the allied cause.

He then sends condolences to Germany on the news of the death of Hitler.

Sean

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Mr_Sunray
As for Mr. Sunray, many British soldiers, particularly Sherwood Foresters, who had been in training for the trenches died on the Dublin streets during the rising - and many more,

after the fighting in Dublin went on to fight and die in the trenches............This forum is one of the few places they are still remembered and we could do without your crappy comments.

Thanks for the history lesson but I served in 1st Battalion Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters (1WFR) so I know about the history of my former regiment.

Edited by Matt Dixon
Inappropriate comment

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Matt Dixon

Pack it in, and start showing some respect or this thread gets canned.

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Stanley_C_Jenkins

Eamon de Valera was indeed a complex character, and one who (in my view) is quite difficult to warm to. When he sent the Dublin firemen to Belfast in World War II it may have been because he feared that the largely Protestant Ulster firemen were not helping the Roman Catholic minority - fortunately, this was not the case. Having said that, historians now think that Mr de Valera was not quite as neutral as he liked to make out. For example, he made made no attempt to prevent Southerners from fighting for the Allies and, in 1940, arrangements were in place whereby British forces would assist the south in the event of a German attack. There are also rumours of Allied planes landing at Shannon airport.

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for a picture of the Lincolnshire cap badge, so here is my example:

post-34598-1228830915.jpg

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mbloy

Can anyone suggest any interesting reading material in relation to the Easter Risings that's written from a British army perspective? - All the stuff I know has a political/Republican gloss and isn't too interested in going into detail about ordinary soldiering.

My great uncle was in the 2/4th Lincs (177th Brigade), so keen to know what he got up to.

Regards,

Michael

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wig

A quite recent book which gives a very fair picture of the British perspective is Paul O'Brien's Blood on the streets, see the following link.

http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Streets-Battle...3029&sr=1-3

But the best book on the Rising, by any measure is Max Caulfield's Easter Rebellion for which Caulfied interviewed virtually every British soldier who fought in the Rising (well, a lot of them anyway)

http://www.amazon.com/Easter-Rebellion-Max...3098&sr=1-5

wig.

It was me who asked for the lincs badge - much appreciated.

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mbloy

Wig - thanks for the reading list - that's my Christmas presents sorted!

Rgds,

Michael

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toofatfortakeoff

Further to the last post and straying slightly from the subject! In the 1890s in Grimsby there was an ambassador von Hitzen who was German Naval attache, based oddly enough at Grimsby docks! Now what was he doinfg there? Must have been our von Hitzens Dad or Granddad, surely, as both had Lincolnshire ties.

In the book Lincolnshire Worthies, (only copy Lincoln libraries) where the fathers (not mothers notably) of other Lincs officers appear (notably Lt Col HG Wilson DSO LdH) a photo of von Hitzen appears with his Tirpitz beard in full flow. He is described as a friend of England with a keen interest in all things local.

Surely as German aims were starting to raise eyebrows (Schlieffen plan etc) why did the Germans see fit to have a Naval attache in the Grimsby dockland-hmmm. We can only speculate now, I have no idea what the state was of British intelligence in the 1890s (still in its infancy?) and would love to know if von Hitzen snr was seen as a potential spy. As a Naval attache he must have been giving info to the Kaisers intel dept. for he layout of the docks which were very strategic back then.

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mbloy

DeValera's arresting officer was Capt. Edward John Hitzen 2/5th Lincs - a one time resident of 27 Wellholme Road, Grimsby.

It remains to be seen whether or not any family connections can be established to the German naval attache of the same name (although Grimsby certainly ties-in).

Going off tangent (again) I also note that a Knights Grand Cross of the Military Order of Max Joseph was awarded (postumously) to a Lt. dr. Joachim Ritter von Hitzen KIA 1918. As far as I'm aware, this was a Bavarian order primarily given to naval officers. Obviously this man was not senior enough to be a naval attache in 1890, but perhaps a son of?

I rather hope that 'our' Capt. von Hitzen (despite the name) doesn't have any immediate naval or German forebears - but it would certainly be an exotic story, if something along those lines could be proven.

Michael

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ian turner

From Free BMD:

I am assuming these are correct due to unusual surname and location.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

-----------------------------------------------------

Births Sep 1882

----------------------------------------------------

Hitzen Elsie Alida Caistor 7a 668

----------------------------------------------------

Births Sep 1884

----------------------------------------------------

Hitzen Louisa Alice Caistor 7a 656

---------------------------------------------------

Births Sep 1886

-------------------------------------------------

Hitzen Edo John Caistor 7a 642 (I guess this is our man?)

---------------------------------------------------

Births Sep 1897

---------------------------------------------------

Hitzen Frederic George T Grimsby 7a 649

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------

Marriages Dec 1881

--------------------------------------------------------

HITZEN Hermann William Caistor 7a 1257

Cannot find any traces from (admittedly quick) searches on 1881/1891 and 1901 census...

Ian

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toofatfortakeoff

Top bit of research there Ian-nicely done-

I suppose the thing to do would be to go to the German embassy to find out details of von Hitzen snr. I dont think there is anything sinister about v.Hitzens dad being a Naval attache in the relation sense a quick look on Soldiers Died reveals a number of men born in Germany-Schmidts etc. who were second generatio n Germans who saw fir to fight for the country of their birth, though it must have been big on their conscience.

I saw a newspaper article (possibly in Kilmainham gaol-Dublin) about Capt Hitzen 6th Lincs passing away in Lincolnshire in the early 70s late 60s-I will look up in the library over Christmas.

Have you a date of death offhand?

This also raises the question did every British port back then have a German Naval attache and vice versa? Oh to be a fly on the wall of that office which wouyld be where in Grimsby-down at the docks somewhere I would imagine.

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Piley
Top bit of research there Ian-nicely done-

I suppose the thing to do would be to go to the German embassy to find out details of von Hitzen snr. I dont think there is anything sinister about v.Hitzens dad being a Naval attache in the relation sense a quick look on Soldiers Died reveals a number of men born in Germany-Schmidts etc. who were second generatio n Germans who saw fir to fight for the country of their birth, though it must have been big on their conscience.

I saw a newspaper article (possibly in Kilmainham gaol-Dublin) about Capt Hitzen 6th Lincs passing away in Lincolnshire in the early 70s late 60s-I will look up in the library over Christmas.

Have you a date of death offhand?

This also raises the question did every British port back then have a German Naval attache and vice versa? Oh to be a fly on the wall of that office which wouyld be where in Grimsby-down at the docks somewhere I would imagine.

All,

Captain Hitzen is well documented in de Valera's arrest, can anybody confirm (or not) be the case that with him was a Major Henry George Maddison 2/5 Lincolnshire Regiment, if anyone can assist would be very grateful indeed....

Piley

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Glesga Highlander
And that send his firemen to Belfast after it had been bombed.

Erwin

Yes he did... but the street lighting in the Republic helped the Luftwaffe as a marking guide in their search for a 'blacked out' Belfast. Even after the Belfast blitz the 'lights were still left on' in the Republic.

I used to believe that the 'leaving the lights on' was an urban myth but I read Lord Wheatley's ,the Scottish Judge, auto-biography recently and he clearly states that there was something strange about seeing the lights on in the South and the 'blackout' in the not to far away North when he was stationed there during the Second World War.

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Archer

Don't let's go futher down the "Is that the Eamon ..." track. Let bygones be bygones, please!!

Did anyone mention the field glasses?

From The Times, Tuesday, Apr 26, 1938; pg. 16 ...

post-3636-1241709227.png

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