112th siege Bty R.G.A

[MIDMED]

I know the histories of the Territorial Shroshire Army R.F.A Battries that fought with the 56th & 58th London Divs from 1917 ....... Were the 112th siege Bty R.G.A (who joined the Heavy Artillery Groups on the Somme in 1916) Shropshire Territorials ..... ?

[Graham Stewart]

Midmed,

According to the source that I have 112th(Siege)Bty,R.G.A. was a "New Army" unit which was formed on 14/12/1916 at Portsmouth. There is no mention of it being formed from Shropshire Territorials.

Graham.

[MIDMED]

Midmed,

According to the source that I have 112th(Siege)Bty,R.G.A. was a "New Army" unit which was formed on 14/12/1916 at Portsmouth. There is no mention of it being formed from Shropshire Territorials.

Graham.

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Hello Graham, thanks

The history of the Shropshire Volunteer / Territorial R.G.A would seems to be an extremely complicated one, an early volunteer heavy Bty formed in 1860 as R.G.A...... Posted to the Knew T.F Welsh mounted brigade in 1908 and designated R.H.A (The Welsh Yeomanry had no heavy artillery) ..... From 1917 the Shropshire territorial R.H.A / Army R.F.A batteries fought on the western front. ....

The 112th Siege Howitzer battery was in transit and under instruction in France until becoming operational in July 1916. Sadly the battery war diaries did not survive the war and very little remains with regard a detailed account of the 112th Siege batteries movements and war record. I am certain they were attached to VIII Corps 4th Army in July 1916

The 112th siege bty R.G.A moved independently to France in June 1916 and fought throughout the somme campaign almost exclusively with HAGs attached to T.F Divs I have recently looked into a Derby conscript who apparently attested to his local unit the T.F Shropshire artillery at Ludlow, he served with the 112th Siege Bty..... As the Shropshire artillery reverted back to R.G.A after the war I thought there might be a connection or a pals type nucleus of Shropshire Heavy Gunners in the 112th Siege Bty R.G.A.

Again many thanks

MIDMED

[Graham Stewart]

The 112th siege bty R.G.A moved independently to France in June 1916 and fought throughout the somme campaign almost exclusively with HAGs attached to T.F Divs I have recently looked into a Derby conscript who apparently attested to his local unit the T.F Shropshire artillery at Ludlow, he served with the 112th Siege Bty..... As the Shropshire artillery reverted back to R.G.A after the war I thought there might be a connection or a pals type nucleus of Shropshire Heavy Gunners in the 112th Siege Bty R.G.A.

Again many thanks

MIDMED

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Midmed,

It's interesting that you should mention a Derby Scheme lad, as they only began coming forward for training in January 1916. Initially they were only allotted to Territorial infantry units, but it seem's the scheme was later extended to include Corp's. On your Group being called forward you were directed to the nearest Territorial Force Depot, rather than a Regular Army Depot.

Incidentally Derby Scheme lads weren't actually conscripts as they had all volunteered for the Group System, a fact which is often overlooked. Those that came later who were called up under the Military Services Act were your true conscripts, although it was the Derby Scheme's Group System, which was used as a model for conscription call-up.

Graham.

[rflory]

MIDMED: I have checked all my references on the Shropshire Territorial Artillery units and can find no connection between those units and 112th Siege Battery, RGA.

The 1/1 Shropshire RHA TF in 1916 became A Bty, 293rd Bde, RFA TF and was placed in suspended animation in 1919. The 2/1 Shropshire RHA TF in 1917 became part of 158th Brigade, RFA TF. The 1/1 Welsh Border Mounted Brigade Ammunition Column which consisted entirely of Shopshire RHA personnel joined the 58th London Division but that division already had their own ammunition column so most of the men of that unit volunteered for the Divisional Trench Mortar Brigade that was being formed. Four trench mortar batteries were formed, each containing Shropshire RHA men: X/58, Y/58 and X58 Medium Trench Mortar Batteries and V/58, the Heavy Trench Mortar Battery. None of these units served in the RGA during the Great War.

The best source of information on the Shropshire RHA in the Great War that I have found is "Shropshire Royal Horse Artillery 1912-1918 and Shropshire Gunners in the Trenches 1916-1919" by Arthur Allwood (a small 20-page pamphlet published by him in 1965 and put out in a revised version in January 1978.) Dick Flory

[MIDMED]

The 112th siege bty R.G.A moved independently to France in June 1916 and fought throughout the somme campaign almost exclusively with HAGs attached to T.F Divs I have recently looked into a Derby conscript who apparently attested to his local unit the T.F Shropshire artillery at Ludlow, he served with the 112th Siege Bty..... As the Shropshire artillery reverted back to R.G.A after the war I thought there might be a connection or a pals type nucleus of Shropshire Heavy Gunners in the 112th Siege Bty R.G.A.

Again many thanks

MIDMED

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[/q

Midmed,

It's interesting that you should mention a Derby Scheme lad, as they only began coming forward for training in January 1916. Initially they were only allotted to Territorial infantry units, but it seem's the scheme was later extended to include Corp's. On your Group being called forward you were directed to the nearest Territorial Force Depot, rather than a Regular Army Depot.

Incidentally Derby Scheme lads weren't actually conscripts as they had all volunteered for the Group System, a fact which is often overlooked. Those that came later who were called up under the Military Services Act were your true conscripts, although it was the Derby Scheme's Group System, which was used as a model for conscription call-up.

Graham.

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Hello Graham & Dick

many thanks for your most interesting replys.........

The Derby Scheme, a real pandoras box......! Q Were these men volunteers or conscripts ?

My Shropshire lad is an interesting example, By the summer of 1915 many men who were eligible for service had not come forward and enlisted, the Derby scheme would mean a last chance for a volunteer to serve in the regiment or Corps of there own choosing. He registered in November1915, two weeks before the Derby scheme ended and the lists were closed. He joined the colours in March 1916 with many men conscripted under the military service act, his service number confirms this.

He reported to No2 R.G.A depot in Hampshire i believe a territorial depot at Gosport . Interestingly his short service attestment notes his Derby scheme armlet No.

From information recieved (thanks Dick) with regard the 112th Siege Bty it appears possible he may have wished to serve with his local R.A Bty but was pushed sideways into a new army unit.

Many thanks for info

MIDMED

[Graham Stewart]

Midmed,

Derby lads were definately volunteers as they had a choice as to whether or not they actually joined the Scheme. From the ones I've come across over the years it would appear that personal circumstances prevented many of them from enlisting during the volunteering heydays of 1914/15. The Derby Scheme gave them the chance to put their personal circumstances in order before being called forward.

They were even issued with different coloured cards to those who were called up under the M.S.A., which were buff. It's interesting that your man seems to have been grouped with conscripts, as only the bachelors seemed to have been called up under the M.S.A. in early 1916, although I'm not sure exactly which month, but it did not encompass married men until 25th May 1916.

It's a very interesting subject recruitment and one which I like to research. Should you ever get the chance to read the Police Gazette's for this period you will note that deserters under the Group System are listed seperate from those deserters under the M.S.A.

Graham.

[MIDMED]

Midmed,

Derby lads were definately volunteers as they had a choice as to whether or not they actually joined the Scheme. From the ones I've come across over the years it would appear that personal circumstances prevented many of them from enlisting during the volunteering heydays of 1914/15. The Derby Scheme gave them the chance to put their personal circumstances in order before being called forward.

They were even issued with different coloured cards to those who were called up under the M.S.A., which were buff. It's interesting that your man seems to have been grouped with conscripts, as only the bachelors seemed to have been called up under the M.S.A. in early 1916, although I'm not sure exactly which month, but it did not encompass married men until 25th May 1916.

It's a very interesting subject recruitment and one which I like to research. Should you ever get the chance to read the Police Gazette's for this period you will note that deserters under the Group System are listed seperate from those deserters under the M.S.A.

Graham.

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Hello Graham

The 1914/15 recruiting phenomena in Britain is very interesting as is the volunteer when talking about the Great War. From October 1915 to January 1916, 2,185,000 had registered and attested under the Derby scheme in addition 215,000 men had volunteered directly into the Armed Forces.

A massive difference, while I would agree with you for the most part with regard Derby boys and respectively acknowledge those who bravely volunteered throughout the war, from a government War Office perspective only the latter from the above one could say can claim to be the last of Kitcheners "call to arms" volunteers.

Are the Derby boys the last volunteers of 1914/15 or the very first M.S.A conscripts from 1915/16 ? ...... a debate for a long summers day in the pub i fear.

Very best

MIDMED

[MIDMED]

MIDMED:  I have checked all my references on the Shropshire Territorial Artillery units and can find no connection between those units and 112th Siege Battery, RGA.

The 1/1 Shropshire RHA TF in 1916 became A Bty, 293rd Bde, RFA TF and was placed in suspended animation in 1919.  The 2/1 Shropshire RHA TF in 1917 became part of 158th Brigade, RFA TF.  The 1/1 Welsh Border Mounted Brigade Ammunition Column  which consisted entirely of Shopshire RHA personnel joined the 58th London Division but that division already had their own ammunition column so most of the men of that unit volunteered for the Divisional Trench Mortar Brigade that was being formed.  Four trench mortar batteries were formed, each containing Shropshire RHA men:  X/58, Y/58 and X58 Medium Trench Mortar Batteries and V/58, the Heavy Trench Mortar Battery.  None of these units served in the RGA during the Great War.

The best source of information on the Shropshire RHA in the Great War that I have found is "Shropshire Royal Horse Artillery 1912-1918 and Shropshire Gunners in the Trenches 1916-1919" by Arthur Allwood (a small 20-page pamphlet published by him in 1965 and put out in a revised version in January 1978.)  Dick Flory

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Many Thanks Dick

MIDMED

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=2342

Midmed,

These are the two coloured cards I mentioned earlier, which made a distinction between the two groups. I certainly agree recruiting is a debate worth following and to my knowledge the distinction between all of our recruitng phases was a subject barely acknowledged. I'm probably one of the few saddo's who really enjoys that part of the British Army's history and I think it's only been in the last twenty years that it's become a serious subject among us nutters.

All the best,

Graham.

[MIDMED]

[attachmentid=2342

Midmed,

These are the two coloured cards I mentioned earlier, which made a distinction between the two groups. I certainly agree recruiting is a debate worth following and to my knowledge the distinction between all of our recruitng phases was a subject barely acknowledged. I'm probably one of the few saddo's who really enjoys that part of the British Army's history and I think it's only been in the last twenty years that it's become a serious subject among us nutters.

All the best,

Graham.

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Hello Graham

Great image and an excellent example of the status of a Derby man as a so called volunteer.Well like the typical Derby volunteer, I’ll accept the inevitable and attest to the saddo nutter Brigade before I get called up......!

As you so rightly say the recruiting phenomena and its various stages during the early part of the war was an unbelievable time in Britain’s military and social history. It is very hard to grasp the true mindset of the nations population before the massive new army casualties of 1916.

One or two excellent books published lately that give the reader a true glimpse of the boys who were not professional soldiers but in uniform during 1914 - 15, inevitably this leads us back to the territorials. I'm looking into contemptible territorial regiments at present, mostly London Regiment stuff as you can well imagine the M.S.A was not well received by many T.F battalions.

Again very best

MIDMED

[Balfour]

Has anyone got a copy of this:-

Shropshire Gunners in the Trenches 1916-1919" by Arthur Allwood (a small 20-page pamphlet published by him in 1965 and put out in a revised version in January 1978.) or is the only copy in Shrewsbury Military Museum?

I've a copy of Shropshire RHA 1908-1920 by Derek Harrison with Peter Duckers (2006)