Cut-off date

[Clive Maier]

I have read on this forum, and I believe elsewhere, that CWGC set a cut-off date of 31st August 1921 for the dead of the Great War.

However, my local war cemetery at Orpington includes a number of graves of a later date. The most recent of these belongs to Private Cawte who died in 1931. The photograph is not too clear, so the legend is:

Private

C.T. Cawte

Labour Corps

29th January 1931

This how CWGC describes the cemetery:

All Saints Churchyard has been extended across the lane to the North, and Ontario Cemetery (the name given at the request of the Ontario Government) is the South-East corner of the new ground. The Ontario Military Hospital (February 1916-September 1917) became No. 16 Canadian General Hospital (September 1917-September 1919). The cemetery contains 118 War Graves, of which 88 are Canadian; and a War Cross is erected at the West end.

The ‘late’ graves have markers that strongly resemble the earlier markers. The only real difference is that the late markers have a fuller curve at the head. They may also be a little shorter but I am not sure of that at this moment. The late graves also appear to be maintained in exactly the same way as the earlier graves.

Can any pal help me with the explanation for these late but apparently official graves?

[Terry Denham]

Clive

These are not War Graves. The cut off dates for both wars are never broken.

The grave to which you refer is classified by CWGC as a Non-World War Grave. Apart from the date, this is signified by the different pattern to the top of the headstone.

The picture shows one of several variations used for this class of grave pre-WW2. The post WW2 version is the same as a CWGC war grave headstone but with the corners clipped off.

Where these graves are located in a CWGC cemetery or plot, they maintain them in the same way as the war graves. They also maintain the names of those in their care on their database but these are not yet available to the public on their website.

CWGC sometimes maintain these Non-World War Graves under contract to the MoD or simply because they are in one of their cemeteries. You will often see Non-World War headstones in UK and overseas cemeteries belonging to servicemen who died outside the qualifying periods for both wars or to 'old soldiers' to commemorate their service.

[Clive Maier]

Terry,

Thank you. I was hoping you would see my post but I did not reckon on a near instant reply!

Can you tell me how these graves came about? Did individual families set them up and if so, how did they have access to a common marker pattern and to contiguous plots in the cemetery?

[Terry Denham]

In the UK these are almost always private graves although a significant number can be found in military and naval cemeteries or plots where servicemen have been buried for many years outside the world war periods. Overseas, servicemen died in the various outposts of the Empire and were buried locally - often in cemeteries containing WW1 or WW2 war graves. 'Old soldiers' are often buried in military plots to be with their mates.

Non-World War Headstones varied slightly pre-WW2 but all looked very much like the official CWGC war grave stone but all with slightly differently designed tops. As I said, from the early 1950s, these were standardised into the CWGC headstone with the corners clipped off. An image of one of these was posted recently on the Forum.

I believe all these are provided by CWGC to MoD or to private individuals on a normal commercial basis. The design (apart from the corners) and typeface are identical. I believe that the MoD will offer this style to the n-o-k of a serving casualty if they so wish and that relatives of an 'old soldier' can obtain one also.

The slightly different top is specifically in place to denote that the grave is not a war grave so that those under CWGC control can be easily identified - although I have seen at least one war grave stone copied exactly (unofficially) by the n-o-k of an 'old soldier'. The only person to officially have a CWGC War Grave headstone who died outside the qualifying dates is Sir Fabian Ware - founder of CWGC who is buried in Amberley, Gloucestershire (though his grave is still not classed as a war grave).

[Ivor Lee]

Clive/Terry

Unless my old eyes deceive me one thing that is apparently missing on the headstone is his regimental number.

Is it likely that this was not placed on the gravestone deliberately or simply that the family did not include it?

By the way Clive, do you happen to know what his regimental number was.

Thanks

Ivor

[Clive Maier]

Terry,

That's marvellous, thanks again.

I am trying to visualise the exact scenario. From what you have kindly explained to me, it seems to be this:

The next of kin of a late-dying combatant would approach CWGC in the expectation that their relative could be buried and commemorated like all the other dead of the Great War. The CWGC would reply 'sadly no' but we can commercially arrange for a standard 'late' headstone and plot.

This explains how disparate families acting independently over a period of ten years nevertheless came up with uniform headstones and contiguous plots.

[Terry Denham]

I doubt that it was deliberate.

It may signify that he had been discharged sometime before his death and the number was not regarded as important by the n-o-k.

I have seen the number included on some Non-World War Graves and not on others. Some only quote name, date of death and regiment - not even a rank.

The largest number of Non-World War Graves in one place can be seen at Brookwood Military Cemetery, Surrey where there are several hundred Chelsea Pensioners buried. All Chelsea Pensioners can be buried in the special plot there and be cared for by CWGC if they so wish. The plot is hidden away behind the large WW2 Canadian plot.

I am sure some families would approach CWGC but I am not sure if they would supply the non-world war stone directly or whether it would come via the MoD. (I'll find out).

[bohpal]

A certain amount of the information provided by Terry Denham is available in books about the CWGC and their responsiblities.

To find it you need to have the books, a reasonable memory to remember in which one and a superb memory to be able to find it it all!.

However, much of it remains unpublished and I am thinking particularly of the differing types and sizes of headstone. Obviously if I am wrong in this assertion, no doubt Terry will say. However I wonder if Terry could be persuaded to come up with a paper/dissertation or something of that nature which outlines thes differences.

I would be more than happy to pay my share in the costs of the production of such a document.

What say you Terry?

45594

[Clive Maier]

Ivor,

I'm sorry to say I know nothing of Private Cawte. I picked out his headstone purely because it was the latest of the late graves in the cemetery. I checked for him in John Pateman's Orpington and the Great War but there is no mention of him.

[Terry Denham]

Bohpal

I have such a project on the stocks.

[Terry_Reeves]

Interestingly there are a number of these non-world war headstones in Tidworth military cemetery. Quite a number commemorate retired officers and soldiers. It's an interesting place to visit as it covers war graves headstones from the beginning. At the far end of the cemetery there are also a number of pre-WW1 headstones to men who died around and about the garrison.

Terry Reeves

[john w.]

Sorry I may have missed this bit but, assuming there was no cut off date for the war graves (as seen above), then there would technically be no cut off date for the final verification sheet for the relatives to sign with all the details...

John

[Terry Denham]

John

I think you missed the point.

The cut-off date for war graves is 31.08.21 (31.12.47 for WW2). The headstones discussed above are Non-World War graves and are therefore NOT war graves.

The difference is one of status and of design - also of responsibility of CWGC to commemorate.

Also, as we discussed on another thread there was no need for a cut-off date for the Final Verification Forms.

[john w.]

Damn,, thought I missed it...

Cheers Terry for that

John

[Bob Coulson]

Once again some really interesting stuff on this thread.

Bob.

[paul guthrie]

Terry I have seen the Chelsea pensioners plot. An interesting thing is - I think in place of personal inscriptioon - is the date man became pensioner. Still being used of course.

[Terry Denham]

Clive

The exact process currently of obtaining a Non-World War headstone has been explained this morning by CWGC. It goes as follows....

If the non-world war burial is to take place in a CWGC cemetery or plot maintained by them, CWGC supply a headstone of the appropriate pattern.

If the casualty is a serving member of the armed forces and is to be buried in a non-CWGC plot, the MoD will supply such a headstone if the relatives so wish. The MoD obtain this stone from outside sources and not CWGC although the design is an exact copy minus the top corners.

If the burial is of an 'old soldier' in a non-CWGC plot, the relatives source the headstone themselves from a monumental mason who merely copies the design. CWGC do not become involved other than to supply the names of masons who are able to produce headstones to this pattern. This suggests that they are often consulted on the matter by relatives.

[Clive Maier]

Terry,

Once again, many thanks for helping me to understand how the process worked. I feel I have a grip on it now.

[Bob Coulson]

Just starting on my latest and biggest so far, local memorial research-382 names.

Interestingly one of the first men I have come across is Private Patrick Boyle MM. Died August 30th 1921 so he is one day inside the cut off date.

Buried just down the road from me in Eston Cemetery.

Bob.