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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Zeppelins


munchkin

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Hi all,

I wonder if anyone would know how fast a Zeppelin could travel. In particular L22 ??

Glynn.

According to Douglas Robinson, Giants in the Sky, L22 had a trial speed of 59 miles per hour (95 km per hour). 60-65 mph seems to be pretty typical for most of the war (ie 1915-8). At the start of the war, the top speed was around the 50 mph mark; by the end a few appeared with top speeds of over 70mph, with one (L70) having a listed top speed of 81 mph.

Of course cruising speed would be different to the top speed (edit: well, it's trial speed not top speed, same difference).

Hope this helps!

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From the Spartacus website (

"The Zeppelin developed in 1914 could reach a maximum speed of 136 kph and reach a height of 4,250 metres."

I think that would cover the L22, but not certain.

zoo

PS. 135 kph is about 100mph in old money.

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"The Zeppelin developed in 1914 could reach a maximum speed of 136 kph and reach a height of 4,250 metres."

I think that would cover the L22, but not certain.

zoo

PS. 135 kph is about 100mph in old money.

135 kph is about 83 mph (the conversion factor is 1.6093).

Even 83 is very high - the most highly developed post war airships such as the Hindenburg could only barely touch this speed.

The figures that Brett gives are probably correct. Douglas Robinson's book is generally considered (ie by other experts) to be the definitive work on airships; Spartacus is a resource for schools and not necessarily written by experts.

Adrian

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Thanks Guys,

So we can assume that at a push around 80mph, but, cruising speed on operations would have been around 30 - 40 mph?.

I am trying to work out how long it took a Zeppelin & crew to take off from Tondern reach the midlands and return. Any ideas.

Glynn.

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Presumably the figures quoted would be air-speed? So a Zeppelin running at 60 mph into a 40 mph headwind would only be travelling at 20 mph? It's an important consideration for Glynn when making his calculations.

Tom

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I am trying to work out how long it took a Zeppelin & crew to take off from Tondern reach the midlands and return. Any ideas.

Glynn

As an example, on 23-24 September 1916, L17 departed Tondern at 1310 and, after bombing the midlands, returned at 1025 the next day.

The departure and return times for all raiding airships are listed in Douglas Robinson's The Zeppelin in Combat. If you want specifics, please let me know and I'll look them up for you.

Regards

Gareth

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Presumably the figures quoted would be air-speed?  So a Zeppelin running at 60 mph into a 40 mph headwind would only be travelling at 20 mph?  It's an important consideration for Glynn when making his calculations.

Tom

Tom,

That's absolutely correct. I've had to make unscheduled stops in Iceland on Trans-atlantic flights in C-130's due to this. I can imagine this was a huge factor on long range flights when your top speed was around 70 MPH.

Paul

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Glynn

As an example, on 23-24 September 1916, L17 departed Tondern at 1310 and, after bombing the midlands, returned at 1025 the next day.

The departure and return times for all raiding airships are listed in Douglas Robinson's The Zeppelin in Combat.  If you want specifics, please let me know and I'll look them up for you.

Regards

Gareth

Gareth, if you have the information to hand, could you tell me the departure and return times for the flight of L21 when it raided the Midlands on the night of January 31st/February 1st 1916? Also, do you know where its base was? I know it was either Friedrichshafen or Lowenthal, but I'm not sure which.

Tom

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Tom

L21 departed Nordholz at 1200 on 31 January and returned to the same base at 1145 on 1 February.

I don't think a Navy airship raiding the UK would have been based at Friedrichshafen; I believe that's where it was built. There was an Army airship shed at Löwenthal but, again, I don't think that a raiding airship would have been based there.

Best wishes

Gareth

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Tom

L21 departed Nordholz at 1200 on 31 January and returned to the same base at 1145 on 1 February.

I don't think a Navy airship raiding the UK would have been based at Friedrichshafen; I believe that's where it was built.  There was an Army airship shed at Löwenthal but, again, I don't think that a raiding airship would have been based there.

Best wishes

Gareth

Thanks, Gareth -

The information is of great interest to me. So the L21 had been in the air for almost 24 hours. Amazing to consider the development of engines when you think that just 10 years before, the earliest fliers - even the optimistic ones - could only expect their flights to be measured in minutes.

Tom

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Tom

Yes, the development in technology is truly amazing. However, airships had the advantages over aeroplanes of (a) having a number of engines, so losing one for a while wasn't catastrophic; and (B) being able to stay airborne even if a few of the engines stopped. There's a definite vote of [at least] little confidence in the engines of the day in the specification of the German R type aeroplanes (the 'Giants') where the motors had to be accessible for maintenance while in flight.

Slightly changing subjects, something isn't often mentioned in literature about airships is their terrible vulnerability to icing. When you think how badly a buildup of ice can affect an aeroplane, think how much frozen water could accumulate on the upper surface of a craft as big as a Zeppelin, and what that might do to its performance.

Regards

Gareth (who can claim to having flown an airship [well, sort-of-ish - I had my hands on the wheel and turned it about the sky] for about 5 minutes, while it was doing some tests around the former aerodrome at Schofields, just west of Sydney)

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Thanks Tom - yes this would be a governing factor in the travel air speed time.

Gareth - have you info on L22 25th - 26 September 1916 by any chance.

This all stems from a previous post

 

I am trying to work out how long L22 was in the air. Thats why i asked what the squares mean. I think that the squares are 6 miles square (could be wrong). I worked this out by knowing the distance in miles between ADDLETHORPE and Sutton is about 6 miles which corresponds to the box grid between the two towns. So i thought if i knew the speed of the Zeppelin i could work out how long it took L22 from take off to landing.

Glynn.

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Gareth - have you info on L22 25th - 26 September 1916 by any chance.

Glynn

As is so often the way with these things, the 25/26 September 1916 raid is one of the operations for which the departure and return times aren't listed in The Zeppelin in Combat. These things are sent to try us.

Judging from the departure times for other raids, L22 probably left Tondern at around 1300; airships leaving that base for the UK generally seem to have left in the period 1220-1345 (though L24 left at 1450 on 23 September 1916) in summer.

I've attached the extract from The Zeppelin in Combat that covers L22 on 25/26 September; it does include the landfall time, which may help you to estimate speed.

Regards

Gareth

post-45-1126736674.jpg

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Glynn

Just to add to the confusion, an extract from Ray Rimmel's excellent Zeppelin! is below. As you'll see, it has L22's landfall at 2140 - an hour earlier than the time quoted in The Zeppelin in Combat.

Perhaps one is German time, the other British?

Regards

Gareth

post-45-1126737104.jpg

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Gareth

There's a definite vote of [at least] little confidence in the engines of the day in the specification of the German R type aeroplanes (the 'Giants') where the motors had to be accessible for maintenance while in flight.

Wasn't it the case that with those early multi-engined aeroplanes there was no redundancy: they needed all their engines just to stay aloft. Which means the probability of not staying aloft was higher than with a single, so the likes of Alcock and Brown were particularly brave. These days its the opposite; engines are so reliable and so powerful that there is a massive redundancy factor which is why transatlantic flights are routinely flown by twins such as the B767.

Gareth (who can claim to having flown an airship [well, sort-of-ish - I had my hands on the wheel and turned it about the sky] for about 5 minutes, while it was doing some tests around the former aerodrome at Schofields, just west of Sydney)

What make of airship was this then? A Lightship?

Adrian

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What make of airship was this then? A Lightship?

Adrian

I'm pretty sure that it was a Skyship 600; it was owned by an arm of the Bond Corporation. The airship was doing tourist flights over Sydney, and at the same time generating many noise complaints due to the whining of its engines. My duties at the time included responsibility for dealing with aircraft noise problems, and I took a team to Schofields to carry out noise measurements during various trials. During the course of the day, I had the chance to go for a flight, which included a short period with the wheel in hand.

My memory is that it was light on the controls, but there was a definite lag between a control movement and the response by the aircraft. However, the experience helped to fill in a day.

Regards

Gareth

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Wasn't it the case that with those early multi-engined aeroplanes there was no redundancy: they needed all their engines just to stay aloft.

Adrian

Sorry, I missed the first part of your post when I replied to the second.

Yes, you're certainly right about the multi-engined machines of the day needing just about all of their power to stay aloft, especially with a full load. So as a German airman, you'd be better off in a Giant, where the engines can be tinkered with in flight, than in a Gotha, where the power plants were out of reach.

I agree with you about modern engines, too. The sheer size of the engines on the Boeing 777 is staggering.

Cheers

Gareth

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I'm pretty sure that it was a Skyship 600; it was owned by an arm of the Bond Corporation..........

My memory is that it was light on the controls, but there was a definite lag between a control movement and the response by the aircraft. However, the experience helped to fill in a day.

Sounds like a Skyship, which has power operated controls. The Lightship (much smaller, only 4/5 seats) has manual controls and is controlled by large wheels beside the pilot's seat, like wheelchair wheels - so I think you'd know about it!

Not surprised there is a control lag given the moment of inertia of such a craft, and the air pressure on the large side area of the envelope/hull in a turn. Must have been worse on a WW1 Zeppelin. Mind you, at an air display I was at a few years ago there were four Lightships in the air at once and they were surprisingly nimble. They played it for laughs, copying the Red Arrows manouevres including the high speed crossover (rather low speed actually, but a gust of wind could have wrought havoc).

Adrian

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