3/2nd West Riding Brigade Royal Field Artillery

[Clive]

Can anyone help me with information about the 3/2nd West Riding Brigade Royal Field Artillery .I have been researching my family tree and I have dicovered that my grandfather served with them on the Western Front . He was wounded in July 1918 .

I know that he enlisted in Bradford having walked there from Halifax and this was because he was under age .Any information would be of interest .

Thanks Clive

[Tony Lund]

I would post his name, you never know what information someone may have. I once came across a list of names and addresses of Holmfirth men who had enlisted in the Holme Valley Battery in June 1915. It is possible that there was a mention of his wounding in the local paper, although I have noticed they do not bother with newspaper reports of wounds as much in 1918 as they did in 1914.

I am sure someone will have details of the unit you are interested in.

Tony.

[Clive]

I would post his name, you never know what information someone may have.  I once came across a list of names and addresses of Holmfirth men who had enlisted in the Holme Valley Battery in June 1915.  It is possible that there was a mention of his wounding in the local paper, although I have noticed they do not bother with newspaper reports of wounds as much in 1918 as they did in 1914. 

I am sure someone will have details of the unit you are interested in.

Tony.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Tony , his name was John Greenwood b:15th June 1899 Warley Halifax

[Tony Lund]

John Greenwood.

There are 35 John Greenwood’s listed on the medal rolls at the national Archives. The first 15 have a middle name.

That is John Greenwood's whose names come up when "artillery" is added to the search.

Tony.

[rflory]

As far as I can determine the 3/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF never served overseas. Checking the medal index cards indicates that there are only two men with the name John Greenwood who served with any West Riding Brigade, RFA TF and they both have numbers (785425 and 786456) that indicate that they enlisted with the the 2/3 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF. Are you sure that you did not mean 2/3 instead of 3/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF? Dick Flory

[Stebie9173]

I have to admit that was my thought too, when I saw the Unit Clive had posted...

Steve.

[Clive]

Thank you all. I have to admit that in my excitment at this revalation I may have written the details down incorrectly .I am certain that my Grandfather had no middle names .

My father was completely un-aware of Johns war service .It only came to light when my cousin discovered a couple of old photo's. (Long Story)

Thank you again .Clive

[Clive]

Hello again , I am am now in possession of my Grandfathers service number which was Gunner/Driver 3191/795644 John Greenwood 3/2nd WR Brigade Royal Field Artillery TF .

Enlisted 10-09-15 Bradford

Transfered to ?? Divisional Ammunition Column 08-02-16

Embarked Southampton Le Havre 15-01-17

Posted 311 Bde Ammunition Column 19-01-17

Transfered England underage 14-04-17

Posted 6th reserve Brigade Luton 10-05-18

Posted 52nd Bde BEF France 24-06-18

Admitted No 52 StationaryHospital ?? July 1918 . He appears to have taken no active part after this date and was dicharged 25-01-19

I have a reasonable knowledge of WW1, however , could someone help me with undestanding what he was doing and where .

Kindest regards Clive Greenwood

[Simon R]

Hello Clive,

If it is 3/2nd as you've written above, it means he was a 3rd line reinforcement for the 2/2nd West Riding Bde. RFA. Initially raised in Bradford, the 2/2nd became 311th Bde. RFA 1st May 1916. It became an Army Bde. early 1917.

This means he was part of 62nd Division, the 2nd West Riding Division TF.

The 4th West Riding (Howitzer) bde. RFA can provide a comparison for you here - it raised 3 lines in WWI: the first was the 1/4th WR (How.) bde. RFA in 49th Div., the 2nd was the 2/4th (How.) bde. RFA in 62nd Div. and the 3rd line (the putative 3/4th) was used to reinforce the first two.

So: 3/2nd may be a misnomer for the reinforcements of the 2nd WR bde. RFA. 3rd line recruits often went into existing units instead of forming new ones. His unit designation will refer to the unit he went into when he first joined up, the 3/2nd which never served overseas since it was a reserve for the first two bdes.

Now that's quite a mouthful but I hope it helps, or even makes sense.

n.b. the ?? Divisional Ammunition Column will be 62nd Div. Amm. Col.

[Clive]

Thank you Simon ,

that has explained it very clearly.Perhaps someone could help me with another couple of questions?

On the papers that I have it states that on the 14-04-17 he was transfered back to England and his papers are marked "Underage".I am aware that many young lads joined up underage ,but what happened to them ?

I presume that his father must have written to the Army disclosing his real age or he was found out . Were they charged with an offence under Kings Regulations?Or did the Army put it down to youthful enthusiasm?

Also on his return to France in 1918 he was posted to the 52nd Bde BEF 24-06-18, can anyone tell me what they were doing ?

Clive

[rflory]

Simon R wrote:

If it is 3/2nd as you've written above, it means he was a 3rd line reinforcement for the 2/2nd West Riding Bde. RFA. Initially raised in Bradford, the 2/2nd became 311th Bde. RFA 1st May 1916. It became an Army Bde. early 1917.

Simon: Are you sure that is correct? My understanding is that the 3/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF would be the third line of the 2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF and not the third line of the 2/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF. Each territorial brigade had a series of lines; numbered 1, 2, 3, and, in the case of the 2nd West Riding Brigade, RFA TF these would be labelled as the 1/2 W Riding Brigade, TF; the 2/2 West Riding Brigade, TF and the 3/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF. This being correct there would not necessarily be any connection between the 2/2 W Riding Bde, RFA TF and the 3/2 W Riding Bde, RFA TF (or the 311th Brigade, RFA TF) and therefore there would not be any assurance that he served in that brigade within the 62nd Division. I do agree with your the rest of your comments that the 3/2 West Riding Bde, RFA TF (which was a home brigade) would have provided reinforcements for either the 1/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF (later 246 Bde, RFA TF in the 49th Division) or the 2/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF (later 311 Bde, RFA TF in the 62nd Division).

One thing that perplexes me is that his number (795644) is not indicative of the 2nd West Riding Brigade, RFA TF but rather is in the number range for the West Riding Brigade Ammunition Column which later became the 49th and the 62nd Divisional Ammunition Columns.

Regards. Dick Flory

[Clive]

Hi Dick ,

on his papers it says that he transfered to Divisional Ammunition Column Feb 1916 .There are two numbers on his Attestment 3191 and then written above 795644.I dont know if this helps .

I am amazed by everyones level of knowledge thank you again.

Clive

[Simon R]

Yep, you're right Dick, and I think therein lies a cautionary tale - even those of us who've gone cross eyed looking at this stuff for a long time can get confused by it!

So Clive - it's what rflory said plus my bit at the bottom! (Probably where it belongs....)

Hmmm, might have to go bury head in files for a while now...

[rflory]

Clive: I think I have enough information to finally put the story together:

10 Sep 15 he enlisted in the 2nd West Riding Brigade, RFA TF which was headquartered at Valley Parade, Bradford and was assigned to the 3rd Line of the Brigade (i.e. the 3/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF) which was the "home" line of the Brigade. At the time he received regimental number 3191.

8 Feb 16 he was transferred to the 62nd Divisional Ammunition Column and went to France with the column on 15 Jan 17. Early in 1917 he received his new six-digit number (795644) when the Territorial Force renumbering took place and since he was at that time serving with the 62nd Divisional Ammunition Column his six-digit number fell into the range assigned to that unit (795001 to 800000).

On 19 Jan 1917 he was transferred to 311 Brigade Ammunition Column, RFA TF. This transfer occurred because on 18 Jan 1917, 311 Brigade, RFA TF, one of the brigades of the 62 Divisional Artillery was redesignated as an Army Brigade and removed from the 62nd Divisional Artillery and made a part of First Army. When the brigade left the division it took with it one section of 62 Divisional Ammunition Column to serve as 311 Brigade Ammunition Column.

On 10 April 17 he was sent home under age and assigned to the 6th Reserve Brigade, RFA TF at Luton (this was a training brigade and he was probably assigned there until he reached the prerequisite age for going overseas.)

On 24 June 18, presumely because he had now come of age, he was sent to France with 52 Army Brigade, RFA in First Army. He then evidentally took sick and was sent to 52 Stationary Hospital and probably was invalided to the UK.

Hope this all makes sense. Dick Flory

[Clive]

Thanks Dick , Simon et al .I 'm very grateful .

Would he have been in trouble for being underage?

Clive

[rflory]

From the information at hand it does not appear that he got into any trouble for being underage - just kept at a Reserve Brigade until he reached the legal age for overseas service. Dick

[Simon R]

That's a really neat description Dick.

[J.D. 2019]

I have just subscribed to this site as I am writing an anthology of family members who served in the armed forces and one in particular enlisted in what appears to be the 3/4 WR How Bde RFA  - the writing is somewhat faded, before being transferred to the 298th Brigade RFA as a gunner and was KIA 7/10/1917. Am I correct in assuming that the initial enlistment was as follows:-

The 4th West Riding (Howitzer) bde. RFA can provide a comparison for you here - it raised 3 lines in WWI: the first was the 1/4th WR (How.) bde. RFA in 49th Div., the 2nd was the 2/4th (How.) bde. RFA in 62nd Div. and the 3rd line (the putative 3/4th) was used to reinforce the first two.

Regards

 

[David Porter]

J.D.2019,

 

Yes, you have worked out the system that was adopted by most Territorial artillery units. The third line began supplying drafts for the other two in July/August 1915.

In November 1915 all third line Howitzer brigades were grouped at No. 7 Artillery Training School, Avington Park, Winchester (later No. 7 Reserve Brigade RFA).

In addition to providing drafts, some individual batteries were raised at No. 7 Artillery Training School on June 30, 1916, one of which was 540 (H) Battery.

This was to be administered by the Gloucester TF Association and Warwick Record Office, so men from other units were transferred and renumbered.

They effectively became another branch of 1st South Midland Brigade RFA (not a Howitzer brigade) and were numbered 3991 - 4124 (134 men).

Men who enlisted or joined the TF by the end of 1916 were renumbered with six figures in January 1917.

The man you mention in your previous thread, Herbert Cook, was given 826586 and the new block for 540 (H) Bty was 826557 - 826689.

What makes this even more complicated is that 540 (H) Bty moved from training at Rushmoor and joined 298th Brigade RFA in Ireland and was designated D (H)/298.

This was certainly by December 14, 1916, but it returned to Larkhill in January 1917 with the rest of 298th Brigade RFA, which had been 2/4th North Midland Bde.

298th Army Brigade RFA, as it was by then, eventually arrived in France on March 15, 1917. You have been given a link to be able to download the War Diary.

 

This is how you get a man from the West Riding of Yorkshire, serving in (what was) a North Midland Brigade but under a South Midland number.