badge id, and help required please!

[old joe]

What an interesting thread.

The court seems to have handled him rather gently after 'exposing' him, could they not have sought further sanctions for his misrepresenting himself as a VC or was public exposure the limit of punishment at that time?

Perhaps liar is too strong a word. Perhaps he came to believe that he had merited the award or some superior recommended or promised to him a recommendation for a VC for a past action and it was either rejected or not followed through with and he simply declared himself a VC winner.

He must have had a considerable record and accomplishments that stood in his favour.

I'm not sure this mystery will ever be completely cleared up but good luck in your pursuit.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I think he was a liar, but as others have said he showed bravery just to be a diver, so I suspect it is just that he came to enjoy the extra respect in which he was held whenever he made any statement, perhaps both socially and professionally.

As regards your other question, there seems little doubt to me that as a young man he served in the Royal Navy and that later he served as a part time Royal Engineer of the Volunteer Force, probably at a major port. The RE divers had long held responsibility for port defences (known as submarine mining companies) in late Victorian times.

It seems apparent that when WW1 broke out he volunteered in some capacity based on his past experience and, although by then elderly, was utilised by the authorities in some way. He was thus able to have his photo taken in RE uniform and evidently still maintained the fiction that he was a VC winner - who had clearly pulled the wool over the eyes of a number of gullible people, including a Reverend on a trans-Atlantic crossing.

[Stoppage Drill]

I'm sorry, I don't buy all this touchy-feely "he was a brave man anyway" claptrap. He was what we now call a "Walt" and his embarrassing charade is best forgotten.

[hampshire hog]

Each entitlted to their own opinion,.......and i am frustrated, not to know the truth!,..and thats what i am seeking "The truth",...surely there would be a prosecution record, or newspaper articles, of a court case, of an imposter!,...none of which i can find!

Thanks for your input

Gina

[Graham Stewart]

Probably already mentioned, but the Bombardment of Alexandria took place between the 11th & 13th July 1882 and one fact staring us in the face is the fact he wasn't even in the R.N. at this time having taken his Discharge as 'Invalided' with a fractured thigh from Haslar in 1878. If Haslar was anything like the 'vessel' I was treated in, then I'm afraid he was in a 'brick ship' - it is or was a land based 'Royal Naval Hospital'. So the bare fact is - he wasn't serving in the Navy at the time.

The R.N. ships taking part in the bombardment were;-

Battleships;-

H.M.S. Alexandra

H.M.S. Invincible

H.M.S. Inflexible

H.M.S. Monarch

H.M.S. Penelope

H.M.S. Sultan

H.M.S. Superb

H.M.S. Temeraire

Gunboats;-

H.M.S. Beacon

H.M.S. Bittern

H.M.S. Cygnet

H.M.S. Condor

H.M.S. Decoy

Torpedo Boat;-

H.M.S. Helca

Despatch Vessel;-

H.M.S. Helicon

[Graham Stewart]

With thanks to the Haslar Heritage Group - Royal Naval Hospital Haslar in 1908.

[battiscombe]

yes, Haslar would indeed have been the same one .. at Alverstoke. this is all an interesting yarn.

[hampshire hog]

Thanks for your replies!!

and yes, i know the conflict between the dates 1878 and 1882!..which obviously a set my mind at thinking 'yes'. he defienetly a liar!

i have found many a newspaper articles, by reverends, and doctors, athough all mainly in the states,..where they have given their sermons, and used the story of Andrew Cameron, and how he won the 2 crosses,(just to clarify, that the other cross, is the cross of God)....

would Rev's etc, be able to tell these stories, if it wasnt true????.....would they have to seek validity, before preaching!??

Thanks

Gina

sorry should mention, that i found a newspaper article, of the church sermon, in 1931,..andrew cameron died in 1921,..so still 10 years after his death,..he is being preached, as a hero!!!

[Graham Stewart]

Thanks for your replies!!

and yes, i know the conflict between the dates 1878 and 1882!..which obviously a set my mind at thinking 'yes'. he defienetly a liar!

i have found many a newspaper articles, by reverends, and doctors, athough all mainly in the states,..where they have given their sermons, and used the story of Andrew Cameron, and how he won the 2 crosses,(just to clarify, that the other cross, is the cross of God)....

would Rev's etc, be able to tell these stories, if it wasnt true????.....would they have to seek validity, before preaching!??

Thanks

Gina

sorry should mention, that i found a newspaper article, of the church sermon, in 1931,..andrew cameron died in 1921,..so still 10 years after his death,..he is being preached, as a hero!!!

Ulike today and without the technology you wouldn't be able to make the same equiries as the posters here have done, so those he duped aren't really to blame for perpetuating his memory "as a winner of two crosses".

I think the key here is the fact of his Discharge - 'Invalided' and as such would be of no further service to the R.N. and so wouldn't even have served as a R.N. Reservist. Had he done so, this would have been recorded on his Documents i.e 'Discharged to Fleet Reserve', even his assesment previous to that was "Fair Only" from his last two Commanders - not exactly a brilliant end to his Naval Career.

In the original photo posted there is however a twist - on his Army uniform he wears three ribbons, below the 'duff' V.C. - so having not read the book - did Andrew Cameron re-enlist into the Army at some stage - keeping quiet over his Naval career and deservedly being awarded those, as they seem to have been genuinely approved???

[hampshire hog]

I presume, that he entered into the army at somepoint after his Navy Career,..although , he looks quite old..so maybe ww1,...i have been told the badge is royal engineers!

what are these 3 ribbons for????

there are plenty of Andrew Cameron;s Medal index cards, on Ancestry, but of course,..how would i know which card, belongs to him!?

some say, no more other than the name, reg, and medals.............can i be 100% sure, that his badge is RE??

Thanks

Gina

[hampshire hog]

If someone could say definetly what Regiment, his badge is,..and what medals, ribbons he has,..then maybe i can narrow down his Medal index Card!

if its ok,...as this post is in the Miselaneous catorgory,..i may post the pic, in the other forum, for medals badges etc!

thanks

Gina

[hampshire hog]

many of you are most probably thinking,....not her again!!..lol

But can anyone identify, this uniform, and cap badge please!?

I have in previous posts, been told, its most probably, the Royal Engineers,..but can i be 100%.

also what medals (apart from the 'duff' VC), is he wearing, and what are the ribbons for??

im trying to find hisMedal index card,..but of course there are plenty of Andrew Camerons, but not knowing what reg, he was in,...i dont know which card would have been his!!

therefore if somone can identify, the badge, uniform, and medals/ribbons,..then maybe i can narrow, down my results, on ancestry!

thanks

Gina

[hampshire hog]

oops sorry...should have said...the guy in the middle, sitting down!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

many of you are most probably thinking,....not her again!!..lol

But can anyone identify, this uniform, and cap badge please!?

I have in previous posts, been told, its most probably, the Royal Engineers,..but can i be 100%.

also what medals (apart from the 'duff' VC), is he wearing, and what are the ribbons for??

im trying to find hisMedal index card,..but of course there are plenty of Andrew Camerons, but not knowing what reg, he was in,...i dont know which card would have been his!!

therefore if somone can identify, the badge, uniform, and medals/ribbons,..then maybe i can narrow, down my results, on ancestry!

thanks

Gina

Gina,

Firstly, post away, most of the members enjoy providing the answers, and secondly, why would a group of seemingly sincere WW1 soldiers pose for a formal photograph, with one wearing a Duff V.C. ?

Back then, I am not sure that would have been done ? King's regulations etc.

Why do you think it is a Duff V.C. ? Perhaps the V.C. is real, and it was awarded to the man seated ? The photograph is too small to make out too much detail, in the original can you actually see a V.C.

Regards,

LF

[hampshire hog]

Thank LF, for your reply!!

i have many posts going on here, victorianwars, and rootschat!,..and it seems that he was a lIar,...it hasnt been Published in any papers!..or on any records!

...although there is lots of newspaper articles of him claiming he won it!, Biblical News, of churches abroad, using his story, in their Sermons, a book titled: Andrew Cameron, how he won the two crosses,. written by a reverend and editor, of the Christian scotsman newspaper, in Glasgow!!!

many newspaper articles, about his diving adventures, and most claim, he did a good deed, in the british navy, and earned a pension for life!,...newspaper claims of him being the world record Deep sea diver, c1898.

He claims to have won the VC, in 1882, in the Bombardment, of Alexandria, his claim was that he was sent down to the seabed, to disarm whitehead torpedeos..............however he was discharged from the Navy in 1878!..so you can see where the doubt sets in!!

i just cant get to the bottom of this!!

but thanks for your reply.

Gina

 

[Old Owl]

Hi Gina,

Can you take a close up of the cap badge(s) and also of the medals/medal ribbons of the gentleman in question. I'm afraid as L.F.says the image is toooo small!!

Robert

[Old Owl]

i just cant get to the bottom of this

quote]

Obviously he couldn't either---perhaps the water was too deep!!

[hampshire hog]

medals close up,..will have to find the orginal scan picture,..to get a closeup of the badge!!!

whats the ribbon bar type thing,..ill post tomorrow a close up of that too

thanks

Gina

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Gina,

There is obviously far more to this story than your original post, I have not heard of it before, and no doubt more interesting posts will follow.

Regards,

LF

[FROGSMILE]

I am familiar with this story from your other threads.

There is no doubt in my mind that the cap badges of all the men are Royal Engineers (RE). That is a personal opinion but based on some experience of insignia ID.

As regards the medals. I believe that one is a fake VC and the middle one appears to be a Coronation medal, probably of Edward VII and his Queen. I can see two head and shoulder silhouettes superimposed. The final medal is a Temperance medal for years of abstinence.

[hampshire hog]

Thanks Frogsmile!

would these 2 medals, be listed on his medal index Card???

i will get round, sometime today, to post a closer pic of the medal/ribbon, on the uniform!......but what is the ribbon bar, thing??(sorry for being so ignorant)

Thanks

Gina

[Graham Stewart]

He's definately Royal Engineers, as pointed out in previous posts and only two Andrew Camerons have MIC's directly linked to the RE. Three were transferred in from other units and therefore going off his age I don't think he was any of those three.

However if he didn't serve overseas and remaind in a UK posting then he won't have an MIC, but there may be an off chance his service records records may have survived. Looking at the medals themselves on a previous post(and we do need a larger blow-up) - I'm almost certain that the middle ribbon of the three is for the South African War. As the ribbon on the right, as you look at them appears plain - then it could possibly be a Volunteer Forces Long Service Medal. If so then it's possible he went onto enlist into the Volunteer Force after service in the R.N.!!

[Graham Stewart]

Gina - they need to see a close up of the three medal ribbons worn while in Army uniform, below the 'duff' VC - not the ones worn while a civvy - these have no significance to any military career. As recently posted these could possibly lead us to the fact that Andrew Cameron, may have served in the Army/Militia/Volunteers after being Discharged from the R.N.

However you now run the risk of losing the thread of your original post, by running it in two seperate sections.

Ask if the co-ordinators can bring it all together.

[hampshire hog]

Hi

Sorry,..it taken me ages, to sift through, to find the original scan, of the picture...but finally found it!

Im not too bothered about the other thread,..its been there since 2005, and its been placed in the Miscellaneous, section!

my main research atm...is to identify the badge, and medals/ribbons!....i think the VC story,.im gonna have to let go!

this is, as good as i can get the pic, im afraid!

Thanks, as always

Gina

[FROGSMILE]

Hi

Sorry,..it taken me ages, to sift through, to find the original scan, of the picture...but finally found it!

Im not too bothered about the other thread,..its been there since 2005, and its been placed in the Miscellaneous, section!

my main research atm...is to identify the badge, and medals/ribbons!....i think the VC story,.im gonna have to let go!

this is, as good as i can get the pic, im afraid!

Thanks, as always

Gina

Medal ribbons is not an area where I have great experience, although I have reasonable general knowledge. However, there are many real experts on medals in this forum.

It seems to me that two of the ribbons 'might' be the Queen's and King's South Africa medals from the 2nd Boer War (1899-1902). That would fit with any Militia or Volunteer service (they were separate organizations) that he might have as an Engineer. The third medal would then be the Coronation Medal already mentioned. Alternatively, one of the three medals might relate to long service with the Militia/Volunteers.

All that said they could equally be medals for some other campaign and I will be interested to know what others, more qualified than I, might think.