PhilB Posted 16 August , 2005 Share Posted 16 August , 2005 This slightly modified picture of the 2 medal winners shows them sharing a freemason`s handshake. Did VC winners usually become masons or did they have their own handshake? Perhaps a mason member can tell us the finer points of the handshake? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintin1689 Posted 16 August , 2005 Share Posted 16 August , 2005 Anyone in a fraternal order would not give the handshake so openly - I won't giveaway how its done I'm not a mason, but trust me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 17 August , 2005 Share Posted 17 August , 2005 Anyone in a fraternal order would not give the handshake so openly - I won't giveaway how its done I'm not a mason, but trust me <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bit of a clue with the man on the right.............he has his trouser legs rolled up. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 The right hand medal is a temperance medal issued by the Army Temperance Association. The number 6 indicates an abstinence of 6 months. I have a strong feeling that the centre one is also a temperance medal. It may be worth noting that a number of these medals were also produced in the form of a cross pattee, similar to the VC. For soldiers taking the pledge, temperance medals were highly prized. There is no mystery about the diving aspect. Military diving was introduced in the UK by Colonel Charles Paisley of the Royal Engineers in 1838, and he established a diving school in 1840. The RE still maintain diving teams,as a specialist trade. However this is not an indication that he was a military diver of course. Terry Reeves <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Hello, I have been watching this one and have a couple of observations to throw in, I think the group is of Royal Engineers, as cap badge looks about right with the definition we have in the photo also small size of shoulder titles (RE). I am dubious as to whether it is the VC, as by the time of the photo it would have been positioned at the front of the Army decorations rather than what looks like a long service good conduct medal. As some one else has flagged up the suspension bar is all wrong for a VC. On the bar of 3 I think we have an LSGC and from the shades of the ribbon a possible India medal 1895-1902 as to the last one I havn't a clue. If we are looking at a recent "late Victorian" VC it would be well documented and a possible route to look at would be The Royal Engineer museum at Brompton Barracks Chatham which has one of the largest VC collections. Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 23 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Thank-you for your input.....book still hasnt arrived yet, waiting anxiously each morning the postie comes......we are working on the famiy tree, so havent done much research involving just andrew cameron.....we will be visiting scotland over the next couple of months, and intend to go to the national archives of scotland, in edinburgh thanks gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 29 August , 2005 Share Posted 29 August , 2005 Hello Gina Any news? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admssrchr11 Posted 29 August , 2005 Share Posted 29 August , 2005 This has been a very interesting string of posts. I'm very interested to how this plays out. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 29 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 August , 2005 no not yet. bank holiday today so it might be here tomorow. even if it works out that it isn't a vc i still think this story has gripped me and a few others. either way it's a nice piece of history for our kids and so on. thanxs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 29 August , 2005 Share Posted 29 August , 2005 Gina Thanks for the update. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 30 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2005 ok guys here goes book came this-morning, and it is the book about our relative! the two crosses, and how andrew cameron won them! basically, it was written by john robertson(rev), he met andrew cameron on the cunard liner umbria from liverpool to newyork,(i just got the passenger list, both are on it), both are scottish according to the book, he was a soldier-sailor...but was in the british navy , as a diver, aboard hm penelope, at the bombardement of alexandria, and when the battleship went into port marabout, crew knew torpedo's were on the seabed, and went down and damped fuses, and severed wires , and fished them up from sea.......he was involved in the sinking of the merrimac, at santiago,but was struck by a shell-splinter, and was returned home to navy hospital portsmouth, for his injuries,it was there, that he was awarded the vc, by admiral ryder, whom was summoned by queen victoria. he was discharged from navy "at the close of the eygpt war", and got a job as a diver for the ity corporation on the clyde river! basically he became a drunk, lost everything, except his vc!, old furntiure etc for drink, then he was ordered to work at the jamica bridge glasgow, it was there that came across 2 dead male bodies, and basically saw those men as himself, he saw the light, turned to god, got sober,..carried on diving, he killed a shark in sydney.....stabbed it in the throat, and then again in the belly!!!! so there we go i was on the wrong board, sorry, but i wanted to post about the book, for those that have been interested thanks for all your help......i still was to carry on researching this, because if its all true, i want regconition for him......bear in mind this book was written by a rev, who has seen that ery VC!, cant think he would lie....... where i go from here i have no idea, but thanks to all of you! gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 (edited) Gina - the sinking of the Merrimac at Sanitago was a Spanish Amercian war episode. See here http://www.spanamwar.com/merrimac.htm and see here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/battles...bombardment.htm I note one of the Merrimac crew was a Daniel Montague serving with the US navy who had preveiously been in Royal Navy for seven years .... curiouser and curiouser!! He died in US 1912. See here for crew listing for HMS Penelope in 1881. One year before Alexandria http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/HMSPenelope81.html Edited 30 August , 2005 by Desmond7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Hello Gina I am sorry to say that I am more convinced than ever that your man never won the VC. Whether the story was constructed by the good Reverend or whether he was taken in by a tall tale told by Mr Cameron himself we may never know. What I do know is that the story just does not stand up to even the most rudimentary examination. Sorry Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Gina, I must say I am afraid I agree with Max. As Rob indicated earlier, all VCs were very well documented. There was a VC awarded for the action in Alexandria in 1882 but it does not bear any similarity to the circumstances described in the book. It appears that four men did win the American Congressional Medal Of Honour on the Merrimac, however I would say that even to be present at both incidents would be highly unlikely. Though I feel it fairly certain your relative did not win the VC described, there can be no doubt he was a very brave man......there is no way you would have got me into a diving suit in those days!!!! Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 30 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2005 thanks guys fro replies i supposethe only way to be sure is to get a copy of his discharge papers...and i think that would be at kew gardens..would't it??? gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Hello Gina You could try the National Archive at Kew for Andrew Camerons service papers and you may be lucky and find them. The two main events mentioned above i.e. the sinking of the Merrimac and the bombardment of Alexandria are easily investigated: The sinking, or more correctly the scuttling of the Merrimac was carried out by a volunteer crew of 8 American seamen: Richmond Hobson (skipper), George Charette (Gunners mate first class), Randolph Clausen (Coxswain), Osborn Warren Deignan (also Coxswain), Francis Kelly (Engineer and water tender), Daniel Montague (Chief master at arms, an Irishman who had also served in the Royal Navy), J.C.Murphy (also Coxswain), George F Phillips (Machinist first class). The entire crew received the Congressional Medal of Honour for their actions. Andrew Cameron was not a member of the crew of the Merrimac, and even if he had been he would not have been eligible for an award of the Victoria Cross. The debunking of this part of the story must cast grave doubts on the other parts. As has been mentioned above a Victoria Cross was awarded for the action at Alexandria but it went to Gunner Israel HArding of HMS Alexandra (see notice from the Times below and this link http://www2.prestel.co.uk/stewart/bbhardin.htm ). No other VC was awarded for actions at Alexandria. As I said above you may find Andrew Camerons service record at Kew but you will not find mention of a Victoria Cross. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 5 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2005 [hi max yes i have searched nationarchives, and have his service record, which ships he was on, and dates.......we are going to kew, this coming saturday,to get this sorted once and for all! oh btw....in this book the rev, who wrote it, mentions queen victoria, and prince of wales, as king edward was then, accepting his story and giving him legal rights to put the royal arms of the british soveriegn on the cover!!!! i shall let you know what i find out at kew cheers for now gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 [hi max yes i have searched nationarchives, and have his service record, which ships he was on, and dates.......we are going to kew, this coming saturday,to get this sorted once and for all! oh btw....in this book the rev, who wrote it, mentions queen victoria, and prince of wales, as king edward was then, accepting his story and giving him legal rights to put the royal arms of the british soveriegn on the cover!!!! i shall let you know what i find out at kew cheers for now gina <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Been over a month, anything yet? Like many others, I'm very curious!! Mike C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 9 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2005 hi there yes still none the wiser...went to kew, but wow thats all soo confusing, need to go back at some point to really spend time there, and im gonna go to portsmouth library, and naval museum, because they hold all typesof paper work there! we searched the archives of the scotsman newspaper, and came up with 2 articles mentioning him, and one is about an unwarranted claim to a vc.....ill post the newspaper articles.....however it seems that any type of imposter...anyone who never had the right to wear a vc, etc in the paper......ended up in court, and there are many articles about these types of people....but no article on andrew cameron....so still non the wiser....thanks for your interest gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 9 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2005 the other article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 What a fascinating thread. Please keep us informed of any findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Seconded. Great stuff. I am also intersted in genealogy. What a curious tale......but absolutely absorbing.. keep it coming. Cannot wait for the next installment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted 22 November , 2005 Share Posted 22 November , 2005 Seconded. Great stuff. I am also intersted in genealogy. What a curious tale......but absolutely absorbing.. keep it coming. Cannot wait for the next installment... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anything new? Still following this fascinating story. Mike C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 8 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 8 November , 2007 hello people!!! im back again, this is really annoying me!.....ok found out that andrew cameron, was in the navy, attached his discharge papers!........seems he had earnt himself £5.00 in 1874-1878, while on board hms penelope!......could this be the brave deed he did, which supposedly earnt him the VC???, how would i be able to find out, why hw got paid £5? so he was discharged from the navy in 1878!!!!!.aged 21...where do the army pictures come into it?????? surely he must have joined the army after the navy!??? surely to be pictured wearing, and posing to have won the VC, is a crime!,......if he didnt win it, why is there family pictures, of him weaaring the VC, the book entitled "Andrew cameron, and how he won the two crosses" written by a reverend, whom states in the book, that he saw the VC, when andrew visited him at his Newspaper headquaters "the christian scotsman", why would a reverend lie??? its all so confusing, and very annoying!...anyone with help/info/direction would be great!! tia gina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampshire hog Posted 19 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2012 Hello Guys.. Im back to Andrew Cameron again!! I have come across this Newspaper Article, printed in The Belfast Newletter,..when Andrew Cameron was A diver, and he was sent down to the wrecks of the carlingford Lough Disaster, Ireland...... please, tell me what your opinions of this are: Would you say, that he was a liar?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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