16th CEF to CMGC

[Neil Burns]

Hello,

My Great Uncle Served in the 16th Btn., 1st Division, CEF until May of 1918 when he was tranferred to the 1st Btn. Canadian Machine Gun Corps. I know the 1st Btn. CMGC served with the 1st Canadian Division. My question is this: Would my Uncle continue to have served as a machine gunner attached to the 16th? I do know he returned to Canada on the Empress of Britain which is the same ship, and same date, that the 16th Btn also returned to Canada. I've done a fair amount of research into this but I just can't seem to find an answer to this question.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Neil

PS- Thanks for the tip, Lee!

[Guest Hill 60]

PS- Thanks for the tip, Lee!

Welcome to the Baker Pals

You already know I can't help you, but I will make a guess and hope I'm put right by someone!

You say the 16th Bn went home on the same ship as your Great Uncle. Do you know when the 1st Bn CMGC went home, and on which ship?

Also, have you looked through the relevant CEF war diaries? If not, try HERE

[jhill]

If you are really interested in the operations of the 1st MG Bn, you can follow its activities through its War Diary, which can be accessed at: http://www.archives.ca/02/02015202_e.html

In general, the reason machine gunners were removed from the infantry battalions and moved to the divisional artillery was so they could be assigned to units as required instead of being tied up with individual units. Thus, the 1st MG Bn would have supported different battalions at different times.

[Neil Burns]

Thank you James and Lee. Right now I'm having trouble retrieving the pages from the Canadian Archives website but I will keep trying!

I thought the Machine Gun Corps would support various units but I found it strange he would return on the same ship as his original unit. Unfortunately I have no reference to company on his service records. I'm an American, as was he, and I've always found the Machine Gun Corps concept confusing!

Thanks again,

Neil

[mordac]

Hi Neil:

Here's a quote from "A Call To Arms: The Organization and Administration of Canada's Military in World War One" by David W. Love, page 291:

"In August 1916, existing infantry battalion machine-gun detachments (on establishment since the start of the war) were issued with Vickers machine-guns and reorganized into 'Brigade Machine-Gun Companies.' Each company had ten officers, one hundred and sixty-one other ranks and sixteen Vickers machine-guns, with one assigned to each of the then existing Canadian infantry brigades. At this time, also, the original two machine-gun sections (each with two Lewis guns) per infantry battalion were increased to allow battalion strengths of fourteen Lewis Guns and two Colt machine-guns. The original motor motor machine-gun batteries were now classified as Corps Troops.

This was the situation until early 1918, when the Canadian Corps underwent a large reorganization. Under this reorganization, the brigade machine-gun companies were disbanded and in their place was substituted one machine-gun battalion per division. Each battalion initially had an establishment of three machine-gun companies, which was increased in May to four companies, along with an increased signal component. The strength of each battalion was two thousand four hundred other ranks and ninety-six machine-guns. Also as part of the reorganization, battalion machine-gun establishments were increase so that each infantry platoon had two Lewis gun sections of two guns apiece."

Also from page 291: " Nos. 1, 2, 3, 13 Machine-Gun Companies - reorganized as 1st Battalion, CMGC - raised primarily from the 110th Irish Regiment (Militia)"

As for returning home on the Empress of Britain with the 16th Bn. (his original battalion) I think it was just a lucky coincidence.

Garth

[Neil Burns]

Hi Garth,

Thanks for your help. You have no idea how frustrating the Empress of Britain coincidence has been for me!

I have copies of the 16th CEF's war diary from Mid-November 1916 to Mid-may 1918 if anyone needs anything.

Thanks again,

Neil

[mordac]

Hi Neil:

I don't know what in kind of detail you want to research the 16th Bn. They did publish an official history at the end of the war: "The History of the 16th Battalion (The Canadian Scottish) Canadian Expeditionary Force in the Great War 1914-1919" by Hugh Urquhart, Macmillan Company of Canada Ltd., 1932. On the downside, when I did a search for the book on bookfinder.com it's listed at $300 US!!

Garth

[Neil Burns]

Hi Garth,

Yikes! $300!

I do have the 16th's war Diary for the period My Great Uncle was a member which at least gives me an outline of his service.

I once contacted the Canadian Scottish museum in BC to see if they had any plans of reprinting it, a man can dream, can't he?

Thanks again,

Neil

[paul guthrie]

Neil if you are in Canada you should be able to get it through inter library loan, I did that for a history of Canadian Grenadier Guards, see below. Book dealer saw me coming on McClintock's book, had one with a picture taped in and autographed, knew I had to have it, US$ 90 a few years ago, out in reprint now, I contributed to that.

[Neil Burns]

Hi Paul,

Actually I'm in New Jersey. I need to visit the local University library to track down a thesis from the University of Buffalo, maybe they can get me loan of thsi too.

I tell you how It pans out.

Neil