Geordie Skins

[Kate Wills]

Jimmy Knacky said:

I would like to know where these 65 names from Jarrow constituency come about.

Felling where all them names come from has always been under Gateshead.

Felling has never ever been in the Jarrow constituency............

You should complain! I checked Northamptonshire, and its 62 signatories all put pen to paper in Aldershot, which is in Hampshire.

Could the probem be the lack of explanatory notes outlining the collection methods used to gather the signatures?

I have had cause to thank Des before for this link, which helped my locate a man who was wounded in the war, and do not doubt its accuracy.

 

Jimmy Knacky said:

I have not said that the Ulster Covenant is a false document..........

But the information that has been supplied in that document has been found wanting.........

You have, as the former would be a consequence of the latter.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

You have, as the former would be a consequence of the latter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok i'll re-word it then....

The information contained in the Ulster Covenant is flawed.

Felling has always been in the constituency of Gateshead

The addresses of the 65 in the document are in Felling not Jarrow.................

[Guest]

Ok i'll re-word it then....

The information contained in the Ulster Covenant is flawed.

Felling has always been in the constituency of Gateshead

The addresses of the 65 in the document are in Felling not Jarrow.................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Felling is just a few miles down the road from Jarrow.

Just for the record, never mind which constituency, what were the official postal addresses at that time?

Because if all you are arguing about is what could amount to a recording error and the 65 really were living in Felling, then the rest of it hardly matters.

By the way, Jimmy, whatever might have been the sentiment of people seven years later, only a small minority of Irish people in 1914 were actively pro-republican and the Irish infantry regiments did manage to put 18 regular and 46 service battalions in the field, by no means all Ulster protestants. So, somebody must have joined up!

[Hedley Malloch]

Proof please ..

and ask yourself .. why would anyone invent 65 names (half of them women) from Jarrow?

You seem to suggest that it was a widescale fraud? Take a look at contemporary pictures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Des: given that personation was a well-established and widespread (mal)practice in Northern Irish politics, then perhaps Jimmy has a point here.

Incidentally, as I am sure you know, only six per cent of the Tyneside Irish were first-generation Irish. A high proportion were not even from Tyneside.

As someone who was born and brought up just across the river from Jarrow, in Wallsend, I cannot remember a large, well-established NI community there.

[Desmond7]

Hedley - fully accept what you are saying. As I pointed out, they were more likely to be 'economic migrants' than any kind of established community, given the kind of skills required by industrial cities such as Belfast and Newcastle etc.

All I can say is that I have found the covenant website an exceptional research tool. I have no other axe to grind.

I have sent a query e-mail to the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland.

Kate has kindly given one illustration of how the site can be used to add info on any given soldier with potential links to 'one side' in Ireland ... on several occasions it has turned up trumps for members and the one-off posters seeking family history info.

Without getting into a ruckus ... can I point out that the Jarrow connection was not raised by me. I merely asked at the start why so many men from the broad Newcastle/Durham area ended up in 11th R. Innis. Fus.

That question was answered by yourself amongst several others.

For the record, I still maintain it would be a pretty pointless exercise to make up 65 names for the Covenant given:- 1. They already had plenty of names and 2. As CarninyJ rightly pointed out, the British Government at the time were of the opinion that the unionists were totally 'out-voted' on an All-Ireland basis, and therefore the Liberals held the moral high ground on the topic despite all the roarings of the Conservatives and the 'Imperialists' who feared the 'loss' of Ireland would be prelude to break up of Empire.

Personally, I would take a flying guess at these men being from an Ulster Unionist background working in the city with maybe a smattering of second generation people thrown in for good measure. As for householders data - I cannot argue - perhaps they were in lodgings?

I can't say fairer than that. I make no claims whatsoever of any significant level of support for the Pro-Union cause amongst the Newcastle public in 1912 ... all common sense would tell me they were far more concerned with their bread and butter issues.

Des

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

But Felling is just a few miles down the road from Jarrow.

Just for the record, never mind which constituency, what were the official postal addresses at that time?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Felling

Because if all you are arguing about is what could amount to a recording error and the 65 really were living in Felling, then the rest of it hardly matters.

So it hardly matters?

Maybe to you it hadly matters.

But to people in Jarrow it does as it is not the truth.

By the way, Jimmy, whatever might have been the sentiment of people seven years later, only a small minority of Irish people in 1914 were actively pro-republican and the Irish infantry regiments did manage to put 18 regular and 46 service battalions in the field, by no means all Ulster protestants. So, somebody must have joined up!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Ireland 1914 the catholics outnumbered the protestants by three to one so its obvious the catholics made up the bulk of the Irish regiments

Where in any posting on this thread have I mentioned that catholics did not join up.

The catholics in 1914 were British so when War broke out they joined up to fight for Britain.

I am quite capable of making my own debate without you fabricating one up for me.............

[Graham Stewart]

Jimmy,

I don't want to get into any Unionst/Nationalist arguement, but noticed you have listed Felling as polling/voting district of Gateshead or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? I have a copy of the Gateshead Absent Voters List for 1918 and unless Felling was shifted it isn't one of it's polling districts.

The Parliamentery Borough of Gateshead Polling Districts were;-

A - Barn Close; B - Greenesfield; C - Oakwellgate; D - South Shore; E - Redheugh

F - Teams; G - Prince Consort; H - Claremont; J - Chandless; K - Argyle

L -Shipcote; M - Enfield; N - Bensham; O - Cotfield; P - Claxton; Q - Mount Pleasant; R - Low Fell; S - Sheriff Hill; T - Wrekenton; U - Saltwell.

Now I did go through the AVL for your area and I'm certain that both High and Low Felling were part of the Jarrow Constituency. I have an 1893 map of Durham which shows the Voting areas of the County and it's population at the time, which I'll post once scanned. I've e.mailed Durham CRO to give me a list of the Polling Districts in your area for 1910 & 1918 in case there was a shift.

Again in July 1856 when Newcastle & Gateshead Orangemen tried to march through Felling to meet others of another Lodge a major riot took place. The other Lodge isn't mentioned, but even in the late 1960's/70's I remember a strong Orange presence in the Houghton-Le-Spring and Hetton-Le-Hole areas.

Have you looked in the local newspapers to see exactly how many Lodges existed in Northumberland and Durham at the time?

As I said earlier I don't want to argue, as you're politics is your own affair.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

As promised Jarrow Constituency as it was in 1893 and the population at the time. Both Felling and Heworth fall into the area.

Graham.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Right That's a map of 1893 and I take what you have shown as legitimate I cannot question it?

Mind Jarrow constituency 4 times the size of South shields in 1893?

Only one problem with that though the Ulster Covenant was signed in 1912 which was 19 years after your constituency map on here.

Surely if you can find a constituency map for 1893 for Jarrow you can find a similar map nearer 1912?

As other writers have discredited on here the 1901 census for the 65 names as being 11 years to early (none of the 65 found to be living in Jarrow).

Or the 1910 householders list for Jarrow as being 2 years to early

(none of the 65 found to be living in Jarrow)

What does your map prove?

[Graham Stewart]

Jimmy,

So I take it that for one year only i.e. 1912 Felling was removed from the Jarrow Constituency to suite peoples political purposes and then placed back into the Constituency for it to re-appear in the 1918 AVL.

Therefore if Durham C.R.O. produce and e.mail me Jarrow's polling districts for 1910 and 1918, or perhaps any polling district list's of the Jarrow Constituency from 1893 through to 1918 they would be falsified or rubbish??

So is it your intention to write to County Hall and correct them on this grave error or are you going to go to print to re-write the political history of the County?

I'm not interested in your politics or the names, I just would like to know where you place Felling as a Polling District.

Graham.

[Guest]

But to people in Jarrow it does as it is not the truth.

Most people in Jarrow probably could not care less. My point is not whether these 65 lived in the Jarrow constituency or the Jarrow urban area, but whether they lived in the county. The only relevant point, in the context of men from your area who joined the Skins is whether it shows that there was some body of men who might join them out of loyalty or existing affinity.

Where in any posting on this thread have I mentioned that catholics did not join up.

You didn't, but the remarks attributed to your Irish grandfather - which I accept as totally true, of course - cannot, in my opinion, be generalised into an overall republican sentiment in 1914. I persoanlly believe that the executions after the 1916 uprising had a major impact on Irish opinion, but that in 1914 such republican sentiment was possibly at a low ebb,

I am quite capable of making my own debate without you fabricating one up for me.............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Debate? Jimmy, when did you ever debate? You argue, usually in quite a nasty way. I am sure you are a kind, warm human being, so why not show us something of that side of your personality.

Finally, constituency boundary maps are only likely to have been changed when the boundaries changed. There probably was not a definitive map dated 1914.

[Graham Stewart]

Jimmy,

Have been informed by J.Gill, Durham County Archivist, that both Felling and Jarrow Polling Districts can be found in the Jarrow Parliamentary Division for both 1910 and 1918.

Right then, who's telling the truth then, them or you regarding this matter of Felling Polling District? If you have a source to show that it's incorrect I would get onto Durham C.R.O. and tell them they've got their boundaries wrong and have done so since at least 1893.

Graham.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Well Graham I take my hat off to you.

You have proved to me that Felling was once in the Jarrow constituency

"Well yi bugga man yi live and learn"

And i'm man enough to take Umbrance here (humble pie as we call it)

Good stuff Graham at least you been doing a bit research.

This is what good debates all about

Ok then in 1912 Felling was in the Jarrow constituency

And 65 people from the Jarrow constituency signed the Ulster Covenant

Important point here is the 65 where from Felling in the Jarrow Constituency

Not the 65 where from "JARROW"

I'm going away from this with a bit of knowledge that I never knew about (before I seen this thread I had never heard of the Ulster Covenant)

So thank you Desmond for inadvertantly fetching this to my attention

"65 people from Felling in the Jarrow Constituency signed the Ulster Covenant"

And you mainly Graham for reseaching it instead of just slagging off.

And "no" I'm not going to crawl under the bed in shame....cos it's water off a ducks back as far as I'm concered.............

Good stuff Graham........ Bonny Lad

PERSONAL INSULTS REMOVED

Edited 26 October , 2005 by Kate Wills

[Kate Wills]

Well Graham I take my hat off to you.

So thank you Desmond for inadvertantly fetching this to my attention

And you mainly Graham for reseaching it instead of just slagging off.

Researching it, instead of slagging off.

Aye, bonny lad. Ain't that just a canny idea!

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Researching it, instead of slagging off.

Aye, bonny lad. Ain't that just a canny idea!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All's fair in love an war pet...........

[Kate Wills]

So, as a matter of interest, do you love the Forum, or have you declared war on it?

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

So, as a matter of interest, do you love the Forum, or have you declared war on it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah jist lurve you pet but yi patter stinks

Geordie slang

Patter = craik, chat, small talk

[Kate Wills]

each to his own.

...and in a funny way, I love you too meduck (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'pet')

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

each to his own.

...and in a funny way, I love you too meduck (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'pet')

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shud that not be me drake (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'bonny lad')

[Guest]

Shud that not be me drake (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'bonny lad')

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two male friends of mine from Bath were having a pint in a pub in Wales and exchanged the standard compliment of "Churs me dear". Didn't half get them some funny looks.

I am sure Kate will tell you that meduck you are and meduck you must stay.

[Desmond7]

I am simply glad that you have now become aware of the Ulster Covenant James. Perhaps, as you say, this thread has made many people aware of its existence as a research tool.

I did not have the opportunity to read any of your posts which have been moderated so extensively so I am unable to comment further.

Throughout your posts, as I perceived them, you did your best to portray me as a liar, a fraud and a bigot. That's my perception.

I will be judged on this forum by the way I conduct myself.

I have just received an e-mail from PRONI on this subject. It reads:-

Des,

We haven't ever heard of widespread falsification of Covenant signatures. However, this is one for historians of the period or those with a special interest, there may be a research project here!

Yours sincerely

Heather Stanley

Access to Information Unit

028 90 255891

Edited 25 October , 2005 by Desmond7

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

I am simply glad that you have now become aware of the Ulster Covenant James. Perhaps, as you say, this thread has made many people aware of its existence as a research tool.

I did not have the opportunity to read any of your posts which have been moderated so extensively so I am unable to comment further.

Throughout your posts, as I perceived them, you did your best to portray me as a liar, a fraud and a bigot. That's my perception.

I will be judged on this forum by the way I conduct myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was that your perception

liar?

fraud?

bigot?

I never called you any off that?

Your names not Ulster Convention is it?

I thought I was calling it not you

Well i'll be blowed

I'll see you in court.......

But if I don't turn up start without me.........

Oh one last thing watch my lips bonny lad....

"There where 65 signatories to the Ulster Convention in 1912 from Felling in the constituency of Jarrow"

not

"There where 65 signatories to the Ulster Convention in 1912 from Jarrow"

[Desmond7]

As a matter of interest my Great Grandfather's name IS on the Covenant!

Also - observe that it was not I who raised the subject. Your issue is with someone else.

Have a nice one.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

As a matter of interest my Great Grandfather's name IS on the Covenant!

Also - observe that it was not I who raised the subject. Your issue is with someone else.

Have a nice one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My issue has never been with you but the Ulster Convenant it just happened that you were the last one to utter "65 names from Jarrow" that I took the quote from....

You have a nice one Bonny Lad

[marina]

As a matter of interest my Great Grandfather's name IS on the Covenant!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice bit of history, Des. Thanks for posting.

Marina