Geordie Skins

[Desmond7]

Why were so many Geordies in the ranks of the 11th R. Innis. Fus?

I've seen the ROH and there are a sizeable number in there. Was a draft from Tyneside/Durham etc sent over post July 1 1916?

Des

[bernardmcilwaine]

des,graham stewart might know,they may be those irishmen who didnt join the tyneside irish but elected to join a irish regt en bloc,bernard

[Graham Stewart]

Des & Co.

I've just passed onto Des a quick debrief on this subject, but it actually relates to the fact that 1,000 men from Northumberland & Durham were recruited from this region. Without going into huge swathes of facts and quotes the scheme began around December 1914 and they actually took over the Tyneside Scottish recruitng office at 17 Grainger Street. They even had a nice advertisement in the paper, plus they listed just about every man who came forward. Poor old Tyneside Jocks had to open up another office when they began recruitng their Depot Company's.

Originally they just wanted a company, but such was the success that a second company was raised. Then in the April the Skins Depot Commander wrote and asked for another 500.

The lads were a mixture of both Catholic and Protestant, but the bulk of them were actually Geordie pitlads rather than Irish, mainly coming from the coalfields of County Durham.

After that other Irish regiments came to Tyneside and even the 13th Glosters came and raised a company. Another great success was the Royal Naval Division who took hundreds from this area. If my memory serves me right Scottish Highland T.F.A. even came asking to recruit from this region, but they got the brush-off by Durham T.F.A.. Only the K.O.S.B. were successful and they took loads of lads from the Hartlepool area.

I'm exhausted now, but I would think every major city in the U.K. should have a similar story to tell, or is it unique to the North East?

Knackered,

Graham.

[Desmond7]

Well typed! Thanks very much. I'll give you a rest for now!

[Graham Stewart]

Desmond,

The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers advertisement.

Graham.

[Desmond7]

Thanks very much!

Reminds me of the recruiting posters of Napoleonic times.

Des

[Hedley Malloch]

I am not aware of any particular affinity between NI or Inniskilling and God's Little Acre, but this was 1914. The average industrial worker did not receive any paid holiday, he had not travelled very far from home, and the War was marketed as more of a holiday than a serious fight ('it'll all be over by Christmas'). So why not join a regiment where at least the training offered the serious prospect of free travel to another part of the world? Why join the Tyneside Irish and have your training in Alnwick when you could join the Inniskillings and be trained in somewhere romantic like Ireland - or wherever? If you lived in 1914 Bowburn, Stanley or Esh Winning, then I imagine Ireland would have an appeal. On the other hand, if you joined the Durham Pals you did your training in Fencehouses. No contest, really.

[Graham Stewart]

Hedley,

By the time these lads were coming in December 1914, the 'Holiday' period was well and truely over, the lists of dead and wounded from Mons, Le Cateau, Nery and the Marne graced every newspaper in the land. It came even closer to home on the 16th December 1914 with the bombardment of Hartlepool and Scarborough, with 112 civilians killed and over 200 wounded. So it's doubtful if a winter holiday in Ireland was uppermost on their minds. What the Skins did offer was to get them out as soon as they were equipped and trained, something that was unlikely with Kitcheners new mobs.

As for the wanting to travel can't argue with that and it's well documented some lads travelled to parts of the country just for the hell of it and enlisted in units they'd never heard of.

One abiding factor with the pit lads is that the Durham coalfield was working a three day fortnight, so there was an element of 'putting food on the table'. Whatever the reason and it could be a combination of all three, the fact remains that by April 1915 over 30,000 Durham miners had enlisted with the colours, with half as many again coming from Northumberland(it had a smaller coalfield).

The consequences for the nation were dire, the Durham coalfield could only muster the day shift manned by the very young and old. It remained that way for months to come and it wasn't until the introduction of the Military Services Act in 1916 that coalmining becomes a reserved occupation.

Still what is done, is done and it's our job never to let the memory fade.

Regards,

Graham.

[J T Gray]

If it's any help, my village's war memorial in Essex has a "Skin" on it. Without retrieving my list from someone elses arcghive I cannot give you any details now but I'm guessing a late-war draft following casualties.

Adrian

[rob elliott]

Des, Graham and myself corrosponded some years ago about the number of Inniskillings in the Ulster Division from the North-East. Graham very kindly gave me a lot of information about casulties from this area that were Skins [or ex-skins]. At the time i was looking for a connection with the UVF who did have a small gun running operation in the North-east via various irish Landed Gentry who also owned land and coalmines up there ie Lord Londonderry.

There appeared no connection with Ulster and the men and their reasons for joining the Skins. However now there are a lot more research tools available on-line i think it may be worth another look.

On the Ulster Covenant site there are 65 men and Women from Jarrow that signed.

i don't know how big that town is compared with Newcastle but i bet there were a lot more of Ulster descent in the latter,where the Covenant wasn't signed.

Take the 1901 census and key in some common Ulster names, Elliott,McConnell [my family] and plenty Irish born men are found working in the North-East of England.How many of these or their English born sons served in the 36th.

May-be a look through soldiers died again might show something different.

Rob

[Desmond7]

Thank you Rob.

[Arthur J]

I may be wrong, but I was always lead to believe that over the years there had been a movement of workers between the shipyards of Belfast, Glasgow, and the North East.

As a result you can follow movement Irish and Ulster/Scots names. This could also explain the 65 people signing the covenant in Jarrow.

Leave this evening for the front, and will rest a while on the Tyneside seat, and think of them all regardless of who they served with.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

On the Ulster Covenant site there are 65 men and Women from Jarrow that signed.

I would like to know where these 65 names from Jarrow constituency come about.

Felling where all them names come from has always been under Gateshead.

Felling has never ever been in the Jarrow constituency............

You have opened up a can of worms here.........

I would not even be surprised them 65 people ever existed.

Cos they certainly never came from Jarrow

It just shows you after all these years how corrupt and perverted the figures of the Ulster Covenant were.

How many other corrupt addresses on that covenant from the rest of the country.

Half a million names my backside.

The true figure would of been more like few thousand.

Felling in the constituency of Jarrow haaaaaaaa

[Desmond7]

Jimmy - grow up. If the Tyneside Irish could raise a huge number of men (albeit not all with true Irish connections) I feel it would be entirely possible for a ship-bulding/heaby industry centre like Newcastle and District to have a small number of pro-union Irishmen amongst them.

Perhaps someone with access to census information can cast light on this.

Also James - it was 90 odd years ago and the depth of pro-union feeling was much greater than at any time since.

And, if you want a historical political row on the subject .. step right up. I'm yer man.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Jimmy - grow up. If the Tyneside Irish could raise a huge number of men (albeit not all with true Irish connections) I feel it would be entirely possible for a ship-bulding/heaby industry centre like Newcastle and District to have a small number of pro-union Irishmen amongst them.

Perhaps someone with access to census information can cast light on this.

Also James - it was 90 odd years ago and the depth of pro-union feeling was much greater than at any time since.

And, if you want a historical political row on the subject .. step right up. I'm yer man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I can tell you categorically none of them people on that list ever came from or lived in Jarrow........

And the first name on the list from Felling (obvious I can't name him on here without my post being banned - so have a look yourself)

He happens to be the agent for all of them (now theres democracy for you)

Now it don't take much working out what Lodge he belonged to........

In fact what a good story it would make delving into the legitimacy of that so called Ulster Covenant now that it can be accessed freely online.....

Truth always surfaces don't it eventually...................

What a can of worms you have opened up bonny lad.............

You should be proud of yourself for fetching this discrepancy to light............ Well done friend..........

[Desmond7]

Proof please ..

and ask yourself .. why would anyone invent 65 names (half of them women) from Jarrow?

You seem to suggest that it was a widescale fraud? Take a look at contemporary pictures.

Feel free to post .. I assume you are talking about the agent being the Master of an Orange Lodge? Entirely possible and highly probable.

By the way, each town or district had an agent/agents. If you check you will see that the same 'form' is true throughout so your 'undemocratic' theory simply does not hold water.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Proof please ..

and ask yourself .. why would anyone invent 65 names (half of them women) from Jarrow?

You seem to suggest that it was a widescale fraud? Take a look at contemporary pictures.

Feel free to post .. I assume you are talking about the agent being the Master of an Orange Lodge? Entirely possible and highly probable.

By the way, each town or district had an agent/agents. If you check you will see that the same 'form' is true throughout so your 'undemocratic' theory simply does not hold water.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well i've checked through the first ten names on the 1901 census found none out of the thousands of them common names and none as it turns out are down for Jarrow living/born

Different story for Gateshead though (mind that does not prove nothing as lot of them are common names )

But its funny none turn up for Jarrow

See what you can turn up for the next ten or the whole 65 and prove me wrong, i'm not doing all the work for you.......

And after a few days your conspicuous by your abscence its obvious you have nothing to report.

I can't be fairer than that can I.

[Desmond7]

Jimmy - please write in English and then I will be able to grasp the direction of your argument.

Have you ever heard the term 'economic migrant'? And perhaps you should also remember that the Covenant was signed more than 10 years after the census you are consulting.

I repeat my point, when you have a million odd unionists in Ireland at the time, plus huge support in a Scotland which was subject to a sectarian divide, THEN add in the overwhelming belief in the values of Empire, I fail to see how you believe that the Ulster Covenant is a fake document.

You state that the true figure for those signing the Ulster Covenant would only be 'a few thousand' .... I'll pass that on to all the historians.

They will be gobsmacked by your insight.

And don't call me Bonnie Lad.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Here I have went one better the first 10 names on the covenant they signed in 1912 I have checked the 1910 householders record for jarrow

So here goes 2 years before the signing...........

And the first ten on the covenant are all males........

JARROW HOUSEHOLDER 1910

Simmons Albert no record of him

Hadden George Hamilton no record of him

David Erwin no record of him

Morrison Edward no record of him

Morrison Thomas no record of him

Martin Robert James no record of him but 3 of Martin Robert in Jarrow

Parr James no record of him

Parr John no record of him

Quin Samuel no record of him

Bratty David no record of him

[carninyj]

I'm afraid I'm with Des on this one.

The number who were supposed to have signed the Ulster Covenant was never challenged at the time - or since to my knowledge. The Liberals had a vested interest in 'rubbishing' the document at the time and never did so. Asquith simply maintained, and quite rightly, that even if every Ulster Unionist was against Home Rule for Ireland, the Nationalists who wanted Home Rule outnumbered them by far. In a democracy ....

Regards

Carninyj

[Desmond7]

I am delighted to have prompted you to study local history so closely. I have now answer for your claims about the 65. Perhaps someone else will now contact the PRONI and tell them that they should delete a section of the Ulstr Covenant beause you consider it a fake.

I am sure a number of members of this forum will be able to vouch for the authenticity of the document.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

It was you who required census proof

Perhaps someone with access to census information can cast light on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you wrote

Have you ever heard the term 'economic migrant'? And perhaps you should also remember that the Covenant was signed more than 10 years after the census you are consulting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2 years before the signing?

Did they parachute them in a few months before?

Now you prove to me just one of them 65 names even passed through Jarrow

And you can multiply it for every constituency in Britain.........

I cannot prove none of this but some newspaper might..........

Make interesting reading don't you think.......

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Anyhow my Irish great grandfather said when he found out his only 2 sons who were both born in Jarrow had accepted the Kings shilling..........

"No respected Irishman would wear the khaki"

But they did and few months later early 1915 they were both among the dead at Ypres.

And aint it ironic five years later there was republicans fighting the british in Ireland and both sides had the same uniform......"The khaki"

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

No Jarrow Man or Woman ever signed the Ulster Covenant as far as I'm concerned.

Either Catholic or Protestant or any other religion for that matter......

Unless someone can prove otherwise................

I have not said that the Ulster Covenant is a false document..........

But the information that has been supplied in that document has been found wanting.........

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Surely there is someone on here can prove that one of those 37 men or 28 women who signed the Ulster Convention supposedly from Jarrow.

Ever lived in Jarrow.

Ever was born in Jarrow.

There Great Granny was born in Jarrow

Or even knew someone from Jarrow.

Surely thats not much to ask.

These 65 people, did they ever exist?

If no one can prove even this? maybe we want to question all of these so called documents from the PRONI.