Soldier with two headstones

[paul guthrie]

This spring at Boulougne Eastern Cemetery I noticed a man had tow headstones. I foolishly did not record his details but had the exact location, directly across the cemetery from the Portuguese Memorial.

I contacted CWGC France, received an immediate reply. Later they took a look and did not find this which made me wonder if I had confused cemeteries since I was in several but was pretty sure this was right because of the memorial.

Later Hedley Malloch was able to go there and found the man was Private Patrick Farley, Royal Irish Rifles who DOW March 15, 1915. # is 9560 in SDGW and 9550 by CWGC. I may have confused the numbers. Both stones are flat and pretty worn. What almost certainly happened is someone else's headstone was mistakenly removed some time ago when his was to be replaced. The problem is someone is now not memorialized. CWGC is going to determine who this is - I hope so - by getting names of the men around him.

I hope to find out who this is and do a short article on the men for ST! if it is interested but certainly for our US publication, Camaraderie which always needs articles. You are welcome to submit if you wish and while an American connection is welcome it's not essential.

Will keep forum folk posted.

[AOK4]

Hello,

I remember a British cemetery in France with two headstones for the same soldier too (Major N. B. Sinclair Travis, RGA). In that case , it was the old marble headstone that had been left on the cemetery also. I couldn't figure out why however.

Did you know Lieutenant Colonel Isherwood (1915) is commemorated on both the Menin Gate and the Ploegsteert Memorial to the Missing?

Greetings,

Jan

[Terry Denham]

Casualties with two headstones are not uncommon in the cemeteries & churchyards of the UK. This usually occurs when CWGC place an official stone on a grave following the fall into disrepair of a private memorial (though not always). They do not remove the old stone in most cases.

Likewise, there are a number of cases of casualties with both a grave and a name on a Memorial to the Missing. This is either by simple error or due to their body being found and identified at a later date. In due course, the name will be removed from the Memorial - usually at the time of a major refurbishment.

[Guest Hill 60]

Slightly off thread here, but in Highgate Cemetery in London there is one CWGC headstone to two people.

The headstone appears to be the correct CWGC size and shape and has the RAOC (WWI) and RAF (WW2) badges at the top. It is to Major Sydney Robert King, RAOC, died 19 Nov 1916 and his son Squadron Leader Eric Bruce King (a pilot in 151 Sqdn) died 30 Aug 1940.

Lee

[Terry Denham]

Lee

Again, this is fairly common particularly where related casualties are concerned. However, it can also found where space had to be saved.

There are many examples of double commemorations in the UK and they usually have two regimental badges if the casualties came from different units. Occasionally a post-war serviceman will be found along with a war casualty again where they are related.

There are a number of unusual war graves around the country including a husband and wife both in the same grave in Horsted Keynes, West Sussex (WW2 graves).

I believe this to be the only example of a married couple, both of whom are entitled to war grave status, in the same grave anywhere (there is at least one other married couple but they are buried in two graves side by side). He was in the Royal Artillery and she was in the RAF - they were killed by a train on their wedding day! They have entwined RA & RAF badges on the CWGC headstone.

[Guest Hill 60]

Terry - Thanks for that.

I visited St Pancras Cemetery (or Islington Cemetery depending which part of it you are in!) early this year with my partner to visit her brother's grave.

If you have never been there it is worth a trip, but go by car as it is too big to walk round in a day!!

There is a CWGC cemetery at the enterance and many CWGC graves dotted about. There are also a large quantity of (mainly) WWI graves that have private headstones with some interesting features; one commemorates a young pilot killed in an air accident and there is a scene of a crashed plane at the top of the headstone.

We also came across the grave of a US Marine killed in action in Vietnam!!

Whilst we were driving around we stopped the car and plunged into the undergrowth to see if we could find something interesting off the beaten track. Down a long, narrow, overgrown path I found a CWGC headstone totally covered in weeds, after cleaning it up I saw it was to a Lance-Sergeant of the 1st Battalion, CEF. Having just purchased a 1915 Star Trio and Plaque to a 1st Bn casualty I took a photo. When I checked up on the details of the Lance-Sergeant I found his number was 46 numbers away from that of my casualty!! We returned recently but we couldn't find the grave again.

[Terry Denham]

Lee

An interesting story.

Hidden CWGC headstones are not unusual. Unfortuately CWGC has to rely on local authorities to keep the scattered war graves in these large municipal cemeteries clear. Some do this very well and others hardly at all - cash again!

I remember searching for hours in one of the large cemeteries in Brighton for a WW1 casualty and eventually found his CWGC headstone in the middle of a large bush totally invisible to the outside world - and that in a very well kept cemetery! I only found it because the grave number pattern said it should be there & I ignored the strange looks from passers-by when I dived into this very thick vegetation!

[Hedley Malloch]

The point about the soldier with two headstones in Boulogne East CWGC is not really that his grave is marked twice. Rather it is that the fact that he has two headstones probably means that another dead soldier is in an unmarked grave. That's the concern.

[Terry Denham]

Hedley

We have not lost sight of that point but as usual one thread leads to another. Such is the benefit of this forum.

Paul's original problem is important and he has followed it up with a number of sources but without a name it is difficult to comment further unless someone visits the site & starts again.

Sorry, Paul. If you had realised the matter would evolve as it has, I am sure you would have noted the name at the time. I can recall many occasions when I have regretted not making full notes!

If we can identify the soldier & the grave number, we can then probably identify who should be next door. The name is the crucial item of info.

[Hedley Malloch]

Paul's original problem is important and he has followed it up with a number of sources but without a name it is difficult to comment further unless someone visits the site & starts again ... (snip) ... If we can identify the soldier & the grave number, we can then probably identify who should be next door. The name is the crucial item of info.

Terry,

Someone has visited the site, identified the name of the soldier with two headstones (Rifleman Patrick Farley), the grave registration number and supplied this information to the CWGC - see the first posting in this thread. We await the outcome of their investigations.

Regards

hedley

[Terry Denham]

Thanks Hedley

I had forgotten that as the thread diverged from the original point!

[paul guthrie]

Yes Terry , Hedley has done that and notified CWGC. I think they will be able to solve this and I am sure you have the cemetery register and may be able to help. There is absolutely no question that the extra headstone is on the actual grave of a known soldier since burials at Boulougne Eastern were not hastily done as at the front and since there are almost no unknowns there.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

Sorry for my confusion! In an effort to identify those buried around Pte Farley and thereby also identify possible candidates for the missing memorial, I have been through all 4690 names in the four registers for Boulogne Eastern Cemetery!

The situation is even more complicated now as each grave in this cemetery has more than one casualty buried in it. Farley's grave (III.D.10) has two other casualties and the ones on either side also have three each. In these circumstances each of the three soldiers in one grave has the same grave number allocated in the register!

The names are as follows -

Grave III.D.9

Pte R.W.Barrett 1722 Middlesex Regt 12.03.15

Rfn J.H.Brooks 2749 Rifle Brigade 11.03.15

Pte E.H.Linderman 1361 Honourable Artillery Company 13.03.15

Grave III.D.10

Rfn P.Farley 9550 Royal Irish Rifles 15.03.15

Pte E.Hiles (served as Howard) 8077 Scots Guards 15.03.15

Pte J.Wade 6949 Royal Irish Rifles 12.03.15

Grave III.D.11

Pte A.Brown 7418 Cameronians 14.03.15

Pte J.A.McDonald 617 Royal Scots 14.03.15

Pte A.Ross 1573 Seaforth Highlanders 12.03.15

Although these casualties share a grave and a grave number, they have individual headstones. This means that Rfn Farley, although in grave number 10, will not be the tenth headstone in the row. He will be further along. This is explained in the front of the register and occurs frequently in CWGC cemeteries - thus explaining why headstones often seem not to match the published grave number.

So, assuming Paul's theory is correct, it is one of the above casualties that has a missing headstone - probably Hiles or Wade - but not necessarily. I am sure CWGC will eventually sort it!

[paul guthrie]

Good work Terry, thanks. Today or tomorrow I will send this information to Mr. Hemington, CWGC France.

[paul guthrie]

I sent the informatiom contained in Terry's last post yesterday.Mr.Hemington has already informed me that the soldier with no headstone is Private Wade , one identified by Terry. They will send a picture and I hope the Bulletin or Stand To! will publish a short piece on this.

[Terry Denham]

Well done Paul

It seems a bit of teamwork has got another soldier his due commemoration - at least as soon as CWGC can produce a new headstone!

After hearing the good news, it suddenly occured to me how the original mistake could have been made.

As I said in my earlier posting, Farley's grave has two other occupants and all have the grave number III.D.10 yet have individual headstones. Along comes happy stonemason with a replacement headstone for Farley in III.D.10. He is confused by the duplicate numbering and takes the wrong III.D.10 headstone. He doesn't notice the different name!

An error made and staying in place till Mr Guthrie wanders by!

[paul guthrie]

Exactly, and I think the error was made long ago. Both headstones are so worn that it's hard to know which is the replacement. We were on a tour and one of the other guys pointed it out to me.

It's an interesting cemetery. The Portuguese Memorial is nice and is the only one I know of except at Port Arthur?, anyway beside Indian one. Also in this cemetery is a Massachusetts RAF man who was the son of a count! We don't have those here.

[Hedley Malloch]

In an effort to identify those buried around Pte Farley and thereby also identify possible candidates for the missing memorial, I have been through all 4690 names in the four registers for Boulogne Eastern Cemetery!

Excellent work, Terry!

[Terry Denham]

Thanks Hedley but you played your part as well!

Because Paul says that both the Farley headstones are in worn condition, it has occured to me that the duplicate may not be a replacement but an error orginating at the very beginning. It is possible that, because of the same grave number being allocated to three casualties, two headstones for Grave III.D.10 with Farley's name could have been produced in error when they were first set up! Again, the duplicated name not being noticed.

Perhaps there never was a headstone for Wade. I think I prefer this as a possible explanation.

[Terry Denham]

Just to round off this matter, I thought you might like to know of a casualty who does actually have two headstones - and two graves in two separate cemeteries.

An airman's remains (WW2) were found in Kent in 1940 and buried under an 'Unknown' CWGC headstone in Sittingbourne Cemetery, Kent. In 1980 the crash site was excavated and further remains found that were identified and taken to Bookwood Military Cemetery and buried under a named CWGC headstone. No connection was made between the two events.

In 1998 the events were connected by researchers but the next-of-kin asked for the body to be left where it was buried - in two different places. He now has two CWGC headstones with full name & details in both Kent and Surrey!

The man with two genuine war graves is Sgt (Pilot) John Joseph Brimble 741563 73 Sqn, RAFVR Died 14.09.40 Age 23. He has two CWGC register and internet database entries as well!