detailed unit diaries

[bernardmcilwaine]

is there any unit diarys that are quite detailed,ones that mention the ordinary soldiers by name and not just the officers,thats not a pop at the officers,i was just curious to know which units recorded their happenings properly,bernard

[gem22]

Bernard

The answer is yes but probably very few. I've looked at about 120 war diaries so far and I know that 1 or 2 of them mentioned men by name. Off hand I can't remember exactly which they were but I 'think' one diary was 2 Coldstreams but only prior to 1916 ( or thereabouts). Looking at the diary the handwriting changed and I suspect the new writer had a change of policy. Very few of the New Army diaries I've read make any mention of the ORs by name. It is mostly the regular army that did it as far as I can tell. But as I say I've looked at relatively few.

Garth

[bernardmcilwaine]

thanks garth,bernard

[Paul Nixon]

Some of the TF and New Army units, not to mention regular units (1st East Surreys in 1914 for example) began the practice of recording other rank names when they first arrived overseas. However, those days of innocence soon gave way to bitter experience, mounting casualties making it impossible for those recording the daily events to record O/R names.

Take a look at the war diary of the 1/6th Northumberland Fusiliers as a case in point. The battalion arrived in France in April 1916 and on the 26th of the same month was pretty much decimated at St Julien. The war diarist has painstakingly recorded 10 pages of other ranks names. Heartbreaking stuff.

Paul

[squirrel]

1st East Surreys diary sometimes mentions killed and d.o.w.'s during September 1914.

Sergeant Ridgeway is mentioned: "Heard that Sergeant Ridgeway died of wounds in Claridge's Hotel Hospital".

Earlier in the diary, on the day he was wounded at Missy- sur- Aisne, it just says one sergeant wounded and then the number o/r's killed and wounded.

[Paul Nixon]

1st East Surreys diary sometimes mentions killed and d.o.w.'s during September 1914.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... as well as the casualties incurred at Mons the previous month.

[Stebie9173]

The 9th Black Watch diary has lists of wounded and KIA for some of the months of it's War Diary.

I think that was during 1916.

Steve.

[gporta]

I've just been thinking... Did units on the front keep other records besides the War Diary? I'm thinking on Battalion Orders, and other possibilities... after all, the Soldiers' records now on W/363 WO/364 must have been compiled from some original unit source.

Maybe some of these are lying in attics or dusty shelves just waiting to be awakened?

Gloria

[Alan_J]

I'm looking at the battle of Neuve Chapelle, and have looked at a lot of war diaries for that period. One in particular stands out, which is the 2/Lincolns. The actual War Diary (the pre-printed form to be filled in) is not that detailed, but the report on the operations at Neuve Chapelle, hand-written and submitted to the Brigae HQ is rivetting stuff! The Battalion CO was killed, so were several other senior officers including the adjutant, so the report was written by a fairly junior officer.

Perhaps because of this he includes lots of detail on the battle, including naming certainly NCOs, but also details of one officer being shot by a German officer who had surrendered (he states the German officer was then bayonetted!), another officer blowing a horn and crying "view-haloos" and much more - in some respects it's more like a newspaper account than the Battalion report. He ends by saying something like "there are many more thrilling stories I have left out" - what he put in was pretty thrilling!

I haven't looked at many of the files outside early 1915, but this one stood out for me.

Alan

[Alan_J]

I've just been thinking... Did units on the front keep other records besides the War Diary? I'm thinking on Battalion Orders, and other possibilities... after all, the Soldiers' records now on W/363 WO/364 must have been compiled from some original unit source.

Maybe some of these are lying in attics or dusty shelves just waiting to be awakened?

Gloria

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many of the War diaries I've looked at for 1915 have additional information, often Brigade orders (but less often Battalion in what I've seen) - that is, in the actual boxes at the NA. In one box relating to 1918 was a trench map which was absolutely fascinating. So often there is more there than just the war diaries, but I expect if you order on-line you don't get all that.

I should add I've only been up to the NA once, and have ordered diaries on-line, but my experience is that there is all sorts in the boxes - including in some cases copies of the communications sent by Battalions/Brigades.

Alan

[Stebie9173]

I've not looked at that many, but the 9th Black Watch diary also included maps of the trenches at Loos, the wounded lists mentioned above, but it did only really mention the ORs very briefly apart from the lists.

The 6th Northants had quite detailed reports on the 1st July (half-a-dozen pages, battalion in Support role), Trones Wood (15 pages, plus maps) and Thiepval (a 3 page appendix of movements, plus maps and Battalion orders).

But, in answer to your origianl question, not much mention of the privates and NCOs at all, beyond some medal recommendations.

Steve.

[stiletto_33853]

Bernard,

The pre 1916 war dairies, or should I say pre Somme, in my experience, tend to be far more liable to name the individual other ranks. Several have given me little gems of information in my research where I would probably never got to learn their fate had it been later on in the war. They also, in a lot of cases name the wounded which can be invaluable sometimes.

Andy

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya andy,i see what you mean,i got two war diarys the other day,and they are exactly how you describe them,the other ranks dead+wounded are not only named but they give their rank and numbers as well,bernard

[Sparky53]

7 Black Watch War Diary has lists of men killed and wounded & Reg'l No following High Wood Actions end of July 1916.

I have photographed the lists (long) if anyone needs a look up

Jane

[jrhardy]

Hi Jane

Don't know whether you are likely to be around 7 years later after your posting!

However, if you are I would be interested in knowing whether the 7 Black Watch War Diaries includes in the list of names Francis Coyle, 2787, who was killed on 30 July 1916.

Thanks

John

[John_Hartley]

John

The diary for that period is available for download from the National Archives

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055851

[EastSurrey]

9th East Surrey's war diary, from later 1916 through to the end of the War, gives monthly lists of casualties for all ranks , with ranks, initials,service numbers. As well as at TNA and Surrey History Centre, Woking, the war diary is available on line through the Surrey Infantry Museum website. The w.d. also lists officers serving with the battalion from late 1916.

Finally, a number of battalion orders for spring and summer 1916 survive at Surrey History Centre, either held with part of the war diary, or filed separately. These have all sorts of information from those arriving with the battalion and those going on leave or to hospital as casualties or sick, to those on courses; and routine orders, including various forbidden practices, and details of badges to be worn by specialists and the 24th Division's badge scheme, introduced around August.

Michael

[Derek Black]

256th RFA mention everyone in their diary, full names, rank, number and battery within brigade.

Possibly more detail due to the lower number of casualties in relation to those of an infantry battalion?

It spoils you for when you go and look at an infantry one again

Derek.

[JefR]

10th Northumberland Fusiliers

is another battalion that recorded names of OR killed and wounded in the first months after they arrived in France.

I thought I might record them one of these days, just for the record.

Do you have any plans to set up a repository for such lists Bernard?

JefR