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Boreenatra

Church Lads Brigade

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Boreenatra

Picture of the Hornchurch and Upminster Companies of the CLB.Many of these went on to serve their country. 13 V.C's were awarded to men who enlisted from the CLB. Regards Steve.

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Patrick H

Steve,

interesting photo. Is it definately CLB as I have never heard of such in either Hornchurch or Upminster ? (The hats worn would seem to indicate CLB as they are not BB) The vicar looks a bit odd with his vestments and military style hat! Who is the copper sitting to his right? There is a 1st Hornchurch Boy's Brigade Company still in existence at St Andrews and the 1st Upminster BB at the Baptist Church closed some years ago. However there is a 1st Cranham BB at Cranham Baptist Church.

Is there a date to the picture?

The CLB was more prevalent in the North of England, as it still is today, and I was not aware there were any CLB units in Havering. Interested to find out more !

Patrick

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harribobs
Who is the copper sitting to his right? Patrick

i think you'll find that's a Army Blue Cloth helmet

(picture is from 'regimentals.com)

post-3719-1120041281.jpg

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bernardmcilwaine

us northerners had the clb and the bb,the clb were the juniors and the bb were the seniors[older lads],i thought this was the same all over,if they went on to serve in the army,they usually joined the RB or the KRRC,if ime not mistaken,the bb were the cadet force for both,there are reps from at least 4 different regts/units in the picture,what a great photo,bernard

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harribobs
us northerners had the clb and the bb,the clb were the juniors and the bb were the seniors[older lads],i thought this was the same all over,if they went on to serve in the army,they usually joined the RB or the KRRC,if ime not mistaken,the bb were the cadet force for both,there are reps from at least 4 different regts/units in the picture,what a great photo,bernard

i think you'll find they are two seperate organisations Bernard (CLB & BB, I was boy scout myself), but you're certinly right about them providing recruits for the KRRC, the 16th battaltion was known as the CLB battalion (IIRC)

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Boreenatra

Dear All. The picture was taken 1904.The Hornchurch Company of the CLB was in 1903. The first officers of the Company were Captain J.M.Ewing, Lieuts J.Breckles & C.H.Deering, Percy A .Dunlop & W.E. Langridge. Staff Sergeant Major was Walter Halestrap, Chaplain was Rev. Herbert Dale and the Bandmaster was Charles T. Perfect. The Co. was attached to the 4th Battalion St. Alban's Regiment and was equipped with forage cap,belt haversack and carbine, and was formally inaugurated at the drill hall Hornchurch Saturday Sept. 30th 1903, by the Rev W.A.Spooner D.D. Warden of New College Oxford.

The objects of the Brigade were to train it's members in the first principles of miiltary excercises and help them to realise the importance of the Brigades three excellent maxims.

1 We being many are one body.

2What costs nothing is worth nothing.

3 Quality is better than quantity.

The local company was very successful, winning nearly every Battalion trophy for efficiency in military excercises,shooting,sports etc. This encouraged the surrounding parishes to establish sections,which became independent companies, Upminster, Romford, Harold Wood, Rainham and Dagenham and the above picture was of the Hornchurch and Upminster Companies.

In 1908 Capt. Ewing resigned the command on his appointment to Batalion Major, and Lieut Breckels appointed in his place. He was succeeded by Rev A.C.Kibble and he by Capt. Stuart K.Barnes. The RSM in this period was Benjamin Bishop, a veteran of the 92nd Gordon Highlanders. In 1911 the local CLB became a recognised unit of the Territorial Force, as an Essex County Cadet Battalion. It was designated the 2nd Chelmsford Cadet Battalion

In 1914 the old CLB equipment was discarded, and the Battalion was equiped with the infantry khaki service dress. Early in 1917 it was affiliated to the King's Royal Rifle Corps and wore their uniform.

Here's a pic of the local CLB on a route march through Hornchurch.

Patrick. Was the Greygoose pic any use to you, and also i've got a list of local women war workers, many of whom are listed as working at Warley Barracks, and also a list of the local CLB who served in the war. Regards Steve.

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themonsstar

Hi all. here is a lad he is Band Sgt H. Barton Clark (St Marys Rochdale) 2522 Coy 7th Batt Manchester Regt is he in the B/B or CLB.

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harribobs

that looks like a CLB badge to me, IIRC the BB is an anchor

post-3719-1120086122.jpg

post-3719-1120086135.jpg

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Patrick H

Just to set the record straight !

The Boy's Brigade and the Church Lad's Brigade were two entirely seperate organisations with different Objects. The BB was formed in Glasgow in 1883 as the forerunner of all uniformed youth organisations and exist today in the UK and throughout the English speaking world. I don't know when the CLB were founded but it was after the BB and was more militaristic and based I believe on the Anglican Church.

Bernard, they were not junior and senior organisations, they were two seperate such. The Junior organistion of the BB was founded in 1917 here in Warley, Essex and were originally known as the Boy Reserves. Following the Great War and when the BB united with the Boy's Life Brigade in 1926 it was felt this title had unfortunate connections and the Juniors became Lifeboys.

The BB were less military styled and althought they wore uniforms, drilled and played bands, they were never a recruitment agency for the army. It is not true to say they sent boys into the army. Many ex members of the BB did join the army but not through the BB, any more so than the Post Office was a recruitment agency for the PO Rifles.

There were also the Catholic BB, The Bolton BB, Jewish Lad's Brigade, and various other similar organisations all of which came out of the BB, but except the JLB I believe all the others are extant.

The stunning effect of the Great War caused much debate within the BB and other organisations as to their programme, raison de etre and the assumed military leanings. The BB went to great lengths to deny that they were militaristic, but that they had in 1883 in the Victorian age, adopted uniforms, drill etc as a manner of controlling large groups of Boys. To this day my own Company wears a uniform, has a Band and goes to Camp, but we are not military !

Steve, you mention several Companies being formed in the area but I think this again is getting the two organisations confused. Certainly the BB had, and have Companies in the areas, but I am not aware of any CLB Companies, and certainly there are none existing now in the area you mentioned. The local Havering & Brentwood area has Companies in Warley, Brentwood, Hutton, Cranham, Hornchurch, Romford, Collier Row, Barking, Dagenham, Elm Park but these are all BB not CLB.

My own Company, 1st Warley was formed in 1889 based at Christ Church, Warley, and continues unbroken service for 116 years. It is not, and has never been, a recruitment agency for the army. However, because of the Warley Barracks many members pre war were sons of servicemen and when the War came many of the ex members of the Company enlisted.

Finally, the badge of the BB was an Anchor and the words "Sure & Stedfast". On union with the BLB in 1926 the red Cross was superimposed giving the present Badge.

I hope this clears a few things up, but I am happy to deal with any more questions.

Patrick

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harribobs
Just to set the record straight !

didn't i already say that? :D

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Patrick H

Yes you did but then you have "outed" as a former scout ! :D

Patrick

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harribobs
Yes you did but then you have "outed" as a former scout !  :D

Patrick

:D always prepared ( and there before the brigades boys!! :lol: )

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Patrick H

1883 BB 1907 Scouts I think not matey: ;)

Patrick

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harribobs
Posted Yesterday, 09:44 PM ,i think you'll find they are two seperate organisations Bernard (CLB & BB)

Posted Today, 11:32 AM, The Boy's Brigade and the Church Lad's Brigade were two entirely seperate organisations with different Objects

i rest my case m'lud :lol:

seriously though Patrick, have a look at this thread about the 16th batt and there's an unanswered question about a CLB medal/badge there, some fantastic pictures as well

16th batt

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Patrick H

My point was in response to yours being the scouts before BB. I will defer to you on the posts but we all know that the Scouts came out of the BB indeed Baden Powell was an Officer in the BB and didnt originally intend starting a seperate organisation to the BB.

However !

Interesting thread, particlarly the great pics of the Battalion in Rayleigh. The issue of medals was quite common and the BB still has them awarded for points in inspection of uniforms, attendance etc. I suspect that that is what this medal is for, but will stand corrected !

I hadn't realised how so many training camps were set up in Essex! Suppose it has to do with the closeness to London.

Patrick

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Boreenatra

Patrick. The CLB info was from Bandmaster Charles T. Perfect's book so I would have assumed the info as written in 1920 was correct, and he also has info on the 3rd and 6th Romford Boy Scouts. Regards Steve.

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