The Action at Welch Ridge

[Guest jim taylor]

Hopefully someone can direct me to some information on this.

I am researching the family who used to live in my parent's home.

I know that John Gare was in the Artist's Rifles and was killed on 30 December 1917. It appears likely that he was, therefore, kileed during this action, but I cannot find any information on what sort of action it was.

Can anyone give me some pointers?

Thank you

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

I have info. on this action but it may take me a while to get around to sending it to you, but to be brief they took part in a small counter-attack.

Regards

Annette

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

Here is the full info. I have.

The following info. is from the Official History.

The 63rd Naval Division held its front with all three Brigades, the 188th were on the right, the 189th in the centre and the 190th on the left. (I can email you with a map which I will have to draw in Paint on my computer as I do not have a scanner, it’s a bit rough but its better then no map).

At 6.30 a,m. on the 30th December the 63rd Division’s front was heavily bombarded for fifteen minutes followed by a infantry attack, with Flammenwerfer detachments. British fire took toll of the Germans, but at many points he entered the forward trenches, where the defenders had suffered heavily from the German bombardment. Corner Trench, Welsh Trench and Welch Support were lost by the 188th Bde. The 189th Bde. had both flanks penetrated, with the Germans entering Ostrich Lane on its right and Battery Lane on its left, where the 7/Royal Fus. of the 190th were driven in losing Eagle Avenue. At 8 a.m. the Germans advanced up a sunken road into the northern side of the salient pressing back the 1/4/K.S.L.I., the left battalion of the 190th Bde. (the K.S.L.I. Regt. History makes no mention of the 1/4 losing any trenches it records that they formed a defensive). Two companies of the Artists Rifles, from brigade reserve, counter-attacked about noon and cleared the Germans from the sunken road, where a new line was established. No attempt was made to recover the salient (the K.S.L.I. Regt. History records the 1/4’s two support companies co-operated in the counter-attack, and records that the situation was restored, but it may have only been referring to the situation of K.S.L.I. Line only). Counter-attacks by the 188th & 189th Bdes failed to regain their part of the line.

Let me know if you want me to email you the map.

Regards

Annette

[Guest Michael Orr]

In the Artists Rifles Roll of Honour (published London 1922) L/Sgt John Henry Gare is listed among those “killed in action or died of wounds received at Welsh Ridge, Cambrai on this date” (30 December 1917). The CWGC Web-site records that Lance Sergeant J.H. Gare is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial & gives his age at death as 27. He was the son of Henry Vernon and Kate Alice Gare, of Rectory Farm House, Steeple Aston, Oxford. From his regimental number (762402) it appears that he joined the Artists Rifles on about the 20th September 1916.

The action at Welsh Ridge is depicted in John Nash’s famous picture “The Artists at Marcoing”, generally known as “Over the Top” & used on the dust-jacket of half the books published on the First World War. (Nash took part in the attack himself). There is a good, lively, account of the attack in the first chapter of Barrie Pitt’s book 1918 – the Last Act (recently re-published in paperback). There is also a very brief acocunt of the battle in the Roll of Honour. The War Diaries in the PRO are very thin but do provide enough data to fix the site of the attack.

Michael Orr

[aramsay]

Jim....I am researching my Gt.Uncle who was killed the same day while serving with the Hood Batt. on Welsh Ridge.

I was interested to note the info. supplied about the Artists Rifles, as this may fill in some information gaps I have from looking thro' RND sources. Likewise, you would be advised to investigate histories asssociated with all the RND/63rd battalions in action that date.

It would be good to pool some of out resources, and if you had anything that relates to Hood Batt., I'd try help you out too.

For what it's worth, I've walked the area the last 2 years; once on the 29th Dec. and 18th Dec., so pretty close to the original time and weather I imagine. I took lots of pics, and have a good feel for the layout of the Ridge. The British sector is fairly featureless, but the sunken road (mentioned above) in the German lines is still there, with bits of dugouts still showing, and a good pill-box.

There's a rest-area off the autoroute that is located right on the German support

trenches......jump the fence, and you are right on the cross-roads of the sunken road.

Attached is image taken looking north'ish along the sunken road, prob. near to where the Artists counter-attacked to.

Slainte, Alan

[aramsay]

And, here's a view from the crest Welsh Ridge, looking towards the German lines. The wood in the distance is the position of the German Emden trench system...........

[Guest Deborah Blundell]

one of my family was wounded 30 Dec 1917at Welsh Ridge .. Company Serjeant Major, Samuel Rata, 1st/28th Bn., London Regiment (Artists' Rifles), passed 6 Jan 1918 

 

i have found the following 

'over the Top'. 1st Artists' Rifles at Marcoing, 30th December 1917 Art.IWMART1656.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:'over_the_Top'._1st_Artists'_Rifles_at_Marcoing,_30th_December_1917_Art.IWMART1656.jpg

 

this is a link to "Artists Riffles 1914 1919 Roll of Honour"

https://archive.org/details/regimentalrollof00highiala

Edited 20 March , 2017 by Deborah Blundell

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

I guess that you may well already know, but it seems that on 30th December 1917 Samuel received a shrapnel wound to his left thigh and face. He was subsequently evacuated by 149 Field Ambulance to a Causality Clearing Station in Ytres, and passed away in 16 General Hospital (then being run by American forces) on 6th January 1918.

 

Regards

Chris

[Jrmh]

War diary entry for 30 Dec 1917:

[Guest]

I have only just come across this topic!

It is now almost one hundred years since my uncle, Private Bright Fraser , Artists Rifles, was captured on 30th December 1917, I believe at Welsh Ridge near Marcoing - south west of Cambrai. He survived the rest of the war in captivity.

I also believe that he had only been in the line for a few days.

At the end of last year I published a book - The Brothers Two - it is a book of the letters and cards etc.  that my uncle and his younger brother William Fraser - my father - wrote home to their parents during the war.

While Bright Fraser was in the Army, my father was a signalman in the Navy.

The book is illustrated with some sketches of building and churches that Bright drew in France and some official correspondence and forms etc.

Should anyone be interested the ISBN 978-1-908336-49-1 is the published and can be ordered from Reveille Press.

Many regards to all researchers

 

Ian F

 

[Guest]

My wife's Great Uncle Percy Thomas Boulonois was killed at Metz-en-couture on 29/12/17 on the eve of the battle of Welsh Ridge,as the war diaries state probably by trench mortars.He was in the 7th Battalion Royal Fusiliers 63rd (Royal Naval)division.Percy along with 2 others killed that day and the majority of the men from the infantry battalions of the 63rd Division killed the next day are commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.Numbers on the memorial are as follows Artists Rifles 31.KSLI 21.Royal Fusiliers 29.          Jim Buck.

[Chris taylor]

Hi , we are researching a relative who was killed in the 1st world war, his name is John Norman Smith, he was a private in the 7th Royal Fusiliers no. 68072. His date of missing presumed killed in action is 30th December 1917. He is commemorated on the Thiepval memorial to the missing of the Somme. His date of death means it couldn’t have been in the battle of the Somme. I think he could have been killed in this battle of the Welsh ridge, as I think his battalion was fighting here. Is anybody able to shed any light on this, it would be most welcome. 

[Jrmh]

Battalion War Diary available:

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355483

[Michelle Young]

Hi Chris and welcome. I have removed your email address from public view. Members can post information for you on here or send you a private message.

 

Michelle, Admin team 

[Loader]

IN the PITT book he says the German attackers were wearing white camouflage over their uniforms & not easy to see til they jumped up & rushed the British trenches.

[horatio2]

The Royal Naval Division history (Jerrold) records at Welsh Ridge: "From Christmas Day onwards ... the enemy shelling markedly increased, and at dawn on December 30th the enemy launched a not unexpected attack against our whole front.

Every effort was made to effect surprise, the enemy even going so far as to dress the leading waves in white to match the snow. Nevertheless, the measure of success which the attack met with was due rather to a stroke of singular misfortune than to any display of cunning on the part of the enemy.

Our line [the 63rd (RN) Division were holding a difficult 6,000 yards] was held by the 190th [Army], 189th and 188th [Naval] Brigades, the battalions in the line being the 1/5 KSLI, 7th Royal Fusiliers, Hood, Drake, Howe and 1st Royal Marines. Under cover of the barrage, the leading waves effected a lodgment in the front line of the 190th Brigade and at the junction of the Hood and 7th Royal Fusiliers and of the Drake and Howe Battalions. The right flank battalion, and most of the Hood and Drake Battalions, stood fast. ... The Hood Battalion at once counter-attacked ... By 8.25 am, the situation was completely restored on this front and one company of the Hood Battalion was actually able to reinforce the 7th Royal Fusiliers.

The situation on the flank of the 190th Brigade was less satisfactory, but the Brigade were able to hold the enemy on their second line and the loss of their front line did not seriously weaken their position."

[Chris taylor]

18 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The Royal Naval Division history (Jerrold) records at Welsh Ridge: "From Christmas Day onwards ... the enemy shelling markedly increased, and at dawn on December 30th the enemy launched a not unexpected attack against our whole front.

Every effort was made to effect surprise, the enemy even going so far as to dress the leading waves in white to match the snow. Nevertheless, the measure of success which the attack met with was due rather to a stroke of singular misfortune than to any display of cunning on the part of the enemy.

Our line [the 63rd (RN) Division were holding a difficult 6,000 yards] was held by the 190th [Army], 189th and 188th [Naval] Brigades, the battalions in the line being the 1/5 KSLI, 7th Royal Fusiliers, Hood, Drake, Howe and 1st Royal Marines. Under cover of the barrage, the leading waves effected a lodgment in the front line of the 190th Brigade and at the junction of the Hood and 7th Royal Fusiliers and of the Drake and Howe Battalions. The right flank battalion, and most of the Hood and Drake Battalions, stood fast. ... The Hood Battalion at once counter-attacked ... By 8.25 am, the situation was completely restored on this front and one company of the Hood Battalion was actually able to reinforce the 7th Royal Fusiliers.

The situation on the flank of the 190th Brigade was less satisfactory, but the Brigade were able to hold the enemy on their second line and the loss of their front line did not seriously weaken their position."

Thanks for that, is there a way to narrow down the position of the 7th royal fusiliers in this action, ie were they trying to hold a trench named Eagle Avenue. If possible are  there any maps available.  Thanks again Chris.

 

[horatio2]

The Report of Operations at Welsh Ridge (TNA ADM 137/3932 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4115603 ) states:

"On the Left Brigade [i.e. 190 Bde] sector after an intense bombardment, strong forces of the enemy entered the front line EAGLE TRENCH, of the 7th Royal Fusiliers, where very fierce hand to hand fighting ensued but, owing to the great strength of the enemy, the garrison who were practically surrounded, were overpowered and nearly all killed or captured."

Maps are included in the TNA reference, which also refers to fighting in EAGLE AVENUE, which may be the same as EAGLE TRENCH.

 

The 7/RF casualties are listed as:  Killed - 1 officer, 10 ORs; Wounded - 2 officers, 30 ORs; Missing - 6 officers, 198 ORs.

Edited 18 February , 2018 by horatio2

[Chris taylor]

3 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The Report of Operations at Welsh Ridge (TNA ADM 137/3932 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4115603 ) states:

"On the Left Brigade [i.e. 190 Bde] sector after an intense bombardment, strong forces of the enemy entered the front line EAGLE TRENCH, of the 7th Royal Fusiliers, where very fierce hand to hand fighting ensued but, owing to the great strength of the enemy, the garrison who were practically surrounded, were overpowered and nearly all killed or captured."

Maps are included in the TNA reference, which also refers to fighting in EAGLE AVENUE, which may be the same as EAGLE TRENCH.

 

The 7/RF casualties are listed as:  Killed - 1 officer, 10 ORs; Wounded - 2 officers, 30 ORs; Missing - 6 officers, 198 ORs.

Thank you so much

[Robin Garrett]

For the sake of accuracy, it was 1/4KSLI (not 1/5KSLI, which didn't exist) that was part of 190 Bde of the 63 (RN) Div.

[horatio2]

24 minutes ago, Robin Garrett said:

For the sake of accuracy, it was 1/4KSLI (not 1/5KSLI, which didn't exist) that was part of 190 Bde of the 63 (RN) Div.

Yes, indeed. Jerrold consistently and wrongly references the 5th Battalion throughout his divisional history, including the index.

[Guest]

Hi I am new to this , i am trying to find out more information about my grand father who was killed in action as printed on  the service sheet from the royal naval volunteer reserve.He was killed on the 30th December 1917, in Victoru  RND  Drake Battalion his NAME MICHAEL DUGGAN . I have all the papers any medals ect sent to my grand mother ,and lots of post cards sent to my father from him . I am 75  in october so all the family  have passed away, he enlisted in 1915 , although he did not have to as he was a chemists assistant i have a card to say he was exempt from service as his job was of value. any information would be very helpfull. 

[horatio2]

Your grandfather's original RND record of service, together with his enrolment papers for London Division RNVR (other papers may be bound in the ledger) are in the archive of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Contact: Library@NMRN.org.uk 

[clk]

Hi michael (mick) duggan,

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

Findmypast have a couple of records which relate to your grandfather, including his RND service record - link. Having been sent overseas, it seems that:

 

12.7.1916 - joined Base Depot (Etaples)

13.9.1916 - posted 8 Entrenching Battalion

3.3.1917 - to Drake Battalion

6.5.1917 - various medical units, being treated for Pyrexia of Unknown Origin/'Trench Fever'

8/9.6.1917 - to Base Depot (Calais)

23.6.1917 - re-joined unit

10.10.1917 to 20.10.1917 - leave to the UK

8.12.1917 - medical treatment for scabies

26.12.1917 - re-joined Battalion

30.12.1917 - killed in action

 

His overseas service with Drake Battalion will be covered by their war diary - here from the National Archives, or here on Ancestry. The Brigade HQ diary for the time of his death is here at the National Archives, or here on Ancestry. The Brigade diary contains maps and other information which isn't in the Battalion. Neither are likely to mention Michael by name though. There is help on reading map references here. 

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

[Guest]

Thank you Horatio 2& clk Chris for your prompt reply . i do have his service  certificate which was sent to my grandmother, but i have no confirmation of as to where he was killed, i assume it was at welsh ridge?

Many thanks for your help.

Kind regards,

Michael( Mick)Duggan