NEW SERVICE BATTALIONS 1918

[charlesmessenger]

In June 1918, twenty-four new Service battalions were raised in Britain. They included 33rd and 34rd Londons, who may have kept their TF status. All bar three were sent to France, the majority being used to reconstitute 14th and 16th Divisions, which had been decimated during the Spring 1918 German offensives. My question is from where they drew their manpower? Since they went to France fairly quickly after being formed, although some were absorbed by the cadres of existing battalions, one assumes that they were made up of trained soldiers. Were these supplied mainly by the Graduated battalions or were they `comb outs’ from home service units?

I would be more than grateful for any light that people can shed.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

My thought is that the Graduated battalions would still be pushing trained soldiers through whatever routes passed as normal by that stage of the war to base depots in France for onward transfer to units at the front. They were in theory linked to infantry regiments.

I suspect comb outs from the Home Service units would certainly have provided some men, but I'm not convinced this would have provided enough for 24 battalions.

The 221 to 227th Brigades (formerly TF Provisional brigades) were still on the East coast. With the German spring offensives having ground to a halt, the threat of invasion must have been seen to be remote. Were all these men needed there? 226 Bde contained the 29th and 30th Bns of the London Regt (formerly 100 and 101 Provisional Battalions of the TF) which were stationed in Essex conveniently close to the 33rd and 34th Londons.

However by early 1918 the only men left in the 29th and 30th battalions, if any, from their distant TF origins would have been those who had previously been too old or unfit to be sent to France. Hence the fact I'm not sure that enough men could have been raised this way unless medical standards were lowered.

Which are the battalions? Could you search for casualties from them on SDITGW and make any deductions from the service numbers - whether service number at death or service number of former service - or ages at death? An older age group (i.e. above the 18 to 19 year old conscripts) would suggest comb outs.

Charles F

[charlesmessenger]

Charles

Many thanks for your most useful thoughts and suggestions. I agree with you that the bulk of the men are unlikely to have come from the Graduated bns. However, your mention of 221-226 Bdes triggered another thought. While the threat of invasion per se was minimal, there was still the belief that the Germans might launch a raid, with East Anglia and the Medway considered the primary targets. Hence the reason for maintaining this force.

I know that in summer 1918 the Volunteer Force was asked to share the burden of defence of this region and formed Special Service Companies for this purpose. Ernest Cooper, the Town Clerk of Southwold, commanded one of these units and recalled that `it was necessary to take men from the East Coast and send them out to France and the Volunteers were asked to find 15,000 men to replace these until the Americans arrived in force’. It could be that these men were used to form the new battalions.

Your idea of employing SDGW is a good one, although I don’t possess it myself. Perhaps some good soul could do a trawl for me? Rather than list all the battalions, I will initially try just 33 and 34 Londons, 14 Leicesters, and 18 Gloucesters. What I am looking for is an idea of the ages and Army Nos of those killed August-November 1918.

Otherwise, it looks like a visit to Kew to see whether there are any clues in the war diaries.

Charles M

[Greenwoodman]

Running them off now Charles. I'll fax them to you.

33rd Londons had 23 casualties, 4 from TR battalions. Everyone so far has previous service recorded.

[charlesmessenger]

Richard

Very many thanks. I will analyse them and see what I come up with.

Charles

[charlesmessenger]

Well, I have gone through the SDGW materially kindly provided by Richard and checked ages at death on CWGC for all four bns, but omitted 14 Leicesters from the statistics since only eight deaths were recorded, which is rather too small a sample.

Almost all were previously with other units, but some of these were within the training organisation. Some 36% revealed no age on CWGC or the names were not recorded on the website (5/106). Of the remainder 25% were 18/19 year-olds, 50% 20-29, and 25% 30-39. The previous numbers of some indicate that they joined up quite early.

My conclusion therefore is that there was quite a sizeable comb-out of home forces, but that some were sent from Graduated bns – it is interesting that these are referred to as TR bns, but presumably there did not seem much point in giving the youngsters fresh numbers when these units had regimental titles restored to them. I am, however, going to look at some of the bn war diaries to try to confirm this. Among the comb-outs are one from the RFA and one from the AOD.

For Charles F – I came across one ex-19th Londoner - Joseph George BEARD, born Clerkenwell and formerly 615573 19th Londons, but KIA 5/11/18 as Rfn 897136 34th Londons.

Again, many thanks to you both

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

Charles M, thanks for your interesting conclusions - they seem very logical. I look forward to hearing whether you find anything in the War Diaries. This fits in well with the work that I am doing comparing the 19th Londons in 1914/15 with 1918.

There is one thing that is really puzzling me a lot. Why was there a need to create 24 new battalions at this stage of the War? We had after all gone through a very painful reorganistion in late Jan 1918 only 5 months earlier in which many battalions were disbanded as we went from 4 to 3 battalions. In my opinion this just adds to the view that the Jan 18 reorganistion wasnt at all well handled (see Hussey, John "The British Divisional Reorganisation in February 1918" in Stand To!, Jan 1996)

Did we cut too deep in Jan 18, which was followed by someone senior soon realising we didnt have enough battalions to do the jobs the army was supposed to? If so, where did the order to raise them originate from? Preseumably there is an Army order/ACI type thing authoising it.

Thanks for the tip off on Pte HEARD. I havent even got into the people transferred out of the 19th yet, but will be going through the other London Regt rolls once I have finished the 19th. Only another 3,000 names to go!

[charlesmessenger]

Charles

I don't think that the raising of these new battalions had anything to do with the Feb 1918 reorganisation. It was simply that so many bns and, indeed, divs had been virtually destroyed during the March, April and May German attacks. Many bns were reduced to mere cadres and three divs - 14th,16th and 25th - were actually brought back to England to refit. The newly raised bns (actually 23 and NOT 24 - my miscounting!) were used to reform the first two, while the 25th drew battalions from the divs in Italy, enabling them to adopt the Feb 1918 organisation.

I have not come across anything in ACIs or AOs on the forming of the bns, but then I've not been specifically looking for this in the past. Someone else might, however, have seen a reference?

I suspect that the authorities considered it simpler to form new bns of Cat A men rather than using existing Reserve bns and having to weed out all below Cat A and find homes for them elsewhere.

Anyway, if I turn up anything in the war diaries, I'll certainly let you know.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

Many bns were reduced to mere cadres and three divs - 14th,16th and 25th - were actually brought back to England to refit. The newly raised bns ... were used to reform the first two...

I suspect that the authorities considered it simpler to form new bns of Cat A men rather than using existing Reserve bns and having to weed out all below Cat A and find homes for them elsewhere.

Charles M, Thanks, that seems to me to be a logical explanation. 14th and 16th Divs must have had almost completely new ORBATS. (I dont have Becke so cant look this up for myself.)

[charlesmessenger]

Charles

Yes they did. Look under units on this website. You will see that Chris has details of every div.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

D'oh - should have thought of that!

thanks Charles M (and of course Chris)

[Charles Fair]

Charles M

I have recently had a look through the BW&VM Rolls of the 33rd and 34th London Regt (both in WO 329/1952) in my quest for former 19th London men. The 33rd didnt have any, so I didn't look for long, but I spent more time on the 34th Roll.

My cursory examination supports your thinking above. The men who had seen former service came from all over the country - a good few London men (but still a minority), but plenty of men from Welsh, Scottish regiments, plus DCLI, Northumberland Fusiliers etc. A few units appear to have provided drafts to the 34th as there were a few blocks in the Roll e.g. Hunts Cyclists. There were men who from their dates of first going overseas must have held the Mons Star. Others who judging by their old numbers and earlier battalions must have been pre-war territorials, 1914-15 enlistees (both TF and New Army) or Derby men. In summary, it would be difficult to imagine a more mixed bag than this lot. I reckon that men with former overseas service comprised 70 - 80 % of the total.

I found 10 former 19th London men amongst this lot (including Pte HEARD) which illustrate this well. Of these 10 men:

1 enlisted on 10 Sept 1914 and was an original member of the 1/19th that landed in France on 10 Mar 1915

1 enlisted c. late Feb 1915 and was also an original member of the 1/19th that landed in France on 10 Mar 1915 (this is quick so he perhaps had prior military service?)

3 enlisted in the summer/autumn of 1915 and were all t/f to the 1/19th on 10 Oct 1915

2 enlisted under the Derby Scheme in the RAMC in early Nov 1915, and were t/f to the 2/19th in May 1916 (as discussed on the thread RAMC transfers to the London Regt). Both were wounded in autumn 1916.

3 appear to be conscripts (I only have 6 digit numbers for these) and they arrived in France with 1/19th between May and Oct 1917

Of these 10 men, 3 do not appear to have gone overseas with the 34th. The 7 who did were either part of the original 34th Londons which arrived in France on 1 Aug 1918 or were part of a draft which arrived on 18 Sept. Of these 1 was killed.

There was also an 11th man who also appeared in the 7th London Roll as having started in the 7th Londons (from his date of first service overseas 5/17 probably a conscript) who was t/f to the 19th when the 1/7th was disbanded on 29 Jan 1918. He left France on 25 March 1918 (presumably wounded) and was also one of the original 34th Londons which arrived in France on 1 Aug 1918.

The rest who had had no former overseas service until the 34th Londons were a definite minority, and are presumably the 18/19 year old conscripts.

Hope this helps

Charles F

[charlesmessenger]

Charles F

Many thanks. I will digest and then come back to you. I did look at some of the new bns' war diaries.

Charles M

[Paul Reed]

I did quite a lot of research on the 34th Londons some years ago; the 7th KRRC was disbanded, and all their personnel went to this battalion, but men were also taken from London Regiment IBD at Etaples, and from the recently disbanded 2/5th Londons also.

They ended up as part of 16th Division, as far as I remember, which no longer had it's 'Irish' title by late 1918.

[charlesmessenger]

Charles F, Paul

I looked that the war diary of 33 Londons and the story is as follows:

It was formed at Clacton on 7 June 1918 as 33 Londons (Royal Fusiliers) and was to be initially administered by CO 29 Londons (also at Clacton) and received an initially draft of 150 men from 29 Londons and 3 officers from 3,21,29 Londons.

8 Jun – 2 offrs from 3 and 32 Londons posted in

9 Jun – 1 offr from 2/7 Devons posted in

10-16 Jun – drafts received 160 men from 17 Gloucesters, 244 from 28 Durham LI, 66 from 2/8 Essex, 86 from 2/1 Denbigh Yeo, 194 from 30 Londons, 15 from 14 Londons, 16 from 22 Londons, 14 from 20 Londons, 4 from 21 Londons, 14 men from 25 (Res Garr Bn) Rifle Brigade. Officers were posted in from a wide range of regiments.

13 Jun – Lt Col J W Stackpoole R Munster F appointed CO

18 Jun – Bn moved to Pirbright and joined by `Training Staff’ (cadre) of 7th Rifle Brigade, which was now to administer bn.

19 Jun – Lt Col Stackpoole posted back to R Munster F and bn retitled 33 Londons (Rifle Brigade). CO 7RB takes command.

27 Jun – 8 offrs posted in from 19 Londons, but three returned to unit the following day (medically unfit)

30 Jun – Travelling medical board finds 141 ORs unfit and they are posted to 225 Mixed Brigade.

2 Jul – Bn entrains for France.

What is noticeable is that no drafts came from the Graduated bns and this is the same with the other war diaries I looked at. These state that the vast majority of men were Cat B1 and B2, although there were some A1s, usually from Special Reserve bns.

Charles F – What is interested about your men is the number who had seen previous service in France. One presumes that they were wounded and then medically downgraded to Cat B, once they had recovered, and posted to bns other than 19 Londons, since no drafts to 33 Londons came from here.

Paul – Bearing in mind that the travelling medical boards did a weed out just before departure for France, it is probably quite logical that the resultant shortfall was made up from the IBDs.

As a general point, some of the newly raised bns were absorbed by the cadres which had returned from France and retained the bn title of the cadre. In other cases, like 33 Londons, the new bn absorbed the cadre. There does not seem to have been any hard and fast rule over this.

What is remarkable is the short length of time between formation and departure for France.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

I looked that the war diary of 33 Londons ....

27 Jun – 8 offrs posted in from 19 Londons, but three returned to unit the following day (medically unfit)

What is noticeable is that no drafts came from the Graduated bns and this is the same with the other war diaries I looked at. These state that the vast majority of men were Cat B1 and B2, although there were some A1s, usually from Special Reserve bns.

Charles F – What is interested about your men is the number who had seen previous service in France. One presumes that they were wounded and then medically downgraded to Cat B, once they had recovered, and posted to bns other than 19 Londons, since no drafts to 33 Londons came from here.

Charles M

Many thanks for this, it is very helpful on the background to these battalions. I will have to have a look at this reference and see if it has the names of these 8 officers.

Please note that my comments above relating to my former 19th London men relate to the 34th Londons, NOT the 33rd. (There were no former 19th men listed in the 33rd Roll.) On my admittedly cursory review of the 34th Roll I would say that in terms of previous service this a fairly typical sample of men in this Bn.

I agree they were probably Cat B1 and B2 - most had been in the UK for several months or over a year after being wounded. Some may have been in the UK with the 3/19th on recovering and then posted to the 34th from there. (Did you look at the 34th War Diary?) Some may have gone via another unit (e.g. Training Reserve).

The 34th Roll had several blocks of men who had no prior overseas service, and I wondered whether these could have come from the Graduated Battalions. Or could they be comb outs of B1 and B2 men from the remnants of the Provisional Battalions?

[charlesmessenger]

Charles

I did not, alas, looked at the 33 Londons War Diary. However, from the ones I did examine I found no men posted in to these battalions from Graduated bns. They all came from Reserve bns, which included former Provisional ones. All the A1 men seem to come from Special Reserve and Extra Reserve bns (3rd and 4th Bns). Thus, your former 19 Londons were almost certainly comb-outs.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

I did not, alas, looked at the 33 Londons War Diary.

...

Thus, your former 19 Londons were almost certainly comb-outs.

Charles, no worries, I will shortly have a look at the 33rd Diary to see if I can find the names of the 19th London officers you mentioned earlier. Also the 34th Bn Diary.

There appear to be medal rolls for the 29th, 30th, 31st and 32nd Londons (probably short as these former Prov Bns didnt go overseas) just to see what kind of men ended up in them.

Agree that my 19th London men in the 34th Roll are comb outs.

[droberts]

Charles F, Paul

I looked that the war diary of 33 Londons and the story is as follows:

It was formed at Clacton on 7 June 1918 as 33 Londons (Royal Fusiliers) and was to be initially administered by CO 29 Londons (also at Clacton) and received an initially draft of 150 men from 29 Londons and 3 officers from 3,21,29 Londons.

8 Jun 2 offrs from 3 and 32 Londons posted in

9 Jun 1 offr from 2/7 Devons posted in

10-16 Jun drafts received 160 men from 17 Gloucesters, 244 from 28 Durham LI, 66 from 2/8 Essex, 86 from 2/1 Denbigh Yeo, 194 from 30 Londons, 15 from 14 Londons, 16 from 22 Londons, 14 from 20 Londons, 4 from 21 Londons, 14 men from 25 (Res Garr Bn) Rifle Brigade. Officers were posted in from a wide range of regiments.

13 Jun Lt Col J W Stackpoole R Munster F appointed CO

18 Jun Bn moved to Pirbright and joined by `Training Staff (cadre) of 7th Rifle Brigade, which was now to administer bn.

19 Jun Lt Col Stackpoole posted back to R Munster F and bn retitled 33 Londons (Rifle Brigade). CO 7RB takes command.

27 Jun 8 offrs posted in from 19 Londons, but three returned to unit the following day (medically unfit)

30 Jun Travelling medical board finds 141 ORs unfit and they are posted to 225 Mixed Brigade.

2 Jul Bn entrains for France.

What is noticeable is that no drafts came from the Graduated bns and this is the same with the other war diaries I looked at. These state that the vast majority of men were Cat B1 and B2, although there were some A1s, usually from Special Reserve bns.

Charles F What is interested about your men is the number who had seen previous service in France. One presumes that they were wounded and then medically downgraded to Cat B, once they had recovered, and posted to bns other than 19 Londons, since no drafts to 33 Londons came from here.

Paul Bearing in mind that the travelling medical boards did a weed out just before departure for France, it is probably quite logical that the resultant shortfall was made up from the IBDs.

As a general point, some of the newly raised bns were absorbed by the cadres which had returned from France and retained the bn title of the cadre. In other cases, like 33 Londons, the new bn absorbed the cadre. There does not seem to have been any hard and fast rule over this.

What is remarkable is the short length of time between formation and departure for France.

Charles M

This is a very old post but it has shed some possible light on a query of mine.

I have a group photo taken in Clacton in early 1918 which shows my Grandfather WR Roberts wearing a RF Capbadge. On his Discharge papers he declares having served in 1/4Cheshires and subsequently the QRWS and London Regt and then the Pay Corps(no mention of RF). It seems probable that he transferred to 33rd London badged as RF from 22nd London/QRWS and from them to the pay corps. The photo is on the forum on another thread of mine and comprises a wide range of cap badges.

Any thoughts?

David

[droberts]

Here is the Link to the Photo.

http://staffweb.itsl...hotos/group.jpg

[charlesmessenger]

David

Feasible, except that the 33rd London weren't formed until June 1918, which would seem to be after the photograph was taken.

The thread does bring back memories, though!

Charles M

[droberts]

Thanks,

I don't have a precise date for the photo but it doesn't look like June.

We believe he returned with the 1/4 cheshires from the middle east in May and was regraded through injury not long after they got to France. He had already been wounded in Gallipoli. So the service with the londons was in between that and him joining the pay corps. It may explain the RF cap badge. I believe there were not many London Bn's badged as RF.

David