Reserved occupations

[David Ingleby]

Many thanks for the responses. As always I am humbled by the amount of knowledge there is on this forum.

[Stebie9173]

If you let me know the names of the Peterborough based men then I will have a look and see if they appear on any of my local bits and bobs.

Steve.

[greeneyes61]

My great uncle George William Ishmael signed up on 11/12/15 for the 4th lans 42488

but he didnt enter the war untill 14/07/15 joining the 1st bat south staffs 42073

could the reason he was not active in the war between those dates as his occupation was a milk dealer

I cant think of any other reasonas to wht he did not join in jan 1916

any info would be appriciated

thanks

[kenf48]

On 27/10/2014 at 18:43, greeneyes61 said:

My great uncle George William Ishmael signed up on 11/12/15 for the 4th lans 42488

but he didnt enter the war untill 14/07/15 joining the 1st bat south staffs 42073

could the reason he was not active in the war between those dates as his occupation was a milk dealer

I cant think of any other reasonas to wht he did not join in jan 1916

I think you have mistyped your dates however he was probably a 'Derby Scheme' enlistment.

Without looking at the record he was either placed on the reserve, in which case unlikely he would be given a number and called up with his Group (See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/). Mobilization could also be deferred. Or, he enlisted on the first date shown and did not go overseas until he'd completed training (minimum 12 weeks at that time) and on going to France he would go to an Infantry Base Depot and from there could be posted to any Battalion/Regiment that needed replacements.

He was not subject to the Military Service Act but it seems unlikely a milk dealer would be 'starred' under the National Registration scheme but he could have put his case to a local tribunal and secured a deferment.

EDIT Now had an opportunity to see the record. He was posted on mobilization on the 12th July 1917 to the 4th Lancashire Fusiliers. This was a training Battalion and he was sent to France on the 17th November 1917. When he arrived at the IBD at Etaples he was posted to the South Staffs as above.

His attestation confirming the Derby Scheme was as you say on the 11th December 1915 and he was placed on the Army Reserve (not the LF) to await mobilisation.

He is shown as Group 33 so it seems likely he was able to secure a deferment or two from the local tribunal. (these were usually for fixed periods often three or six months). Eventually he was mobilized to a local Battalion for training. Having looked at the LLT Group 33 should have been mobilized in May 1916 so it looks like a twelve month deferment which is not unusual.

Ken

[greeneyes61]

Thank you very much ken that answers all my questions

[David Ingleby]

Stebie9173 - Steve, just caught up with your post of some months ago! Sorry! Peterborough based men were Arthur Henry Ingleby and Frank Checkley.

Hope that is enough.

[The Scorer]

I have come across this topic because I am looking at a case which might be relevant.

On page one, Seasider70 said: "I believe that whilst farmers were exempt, farm workers were not."

Can I ask for a little more information on this, please? Does this mean that the farmer had to be the owner of the farm, or could he have just been the tenent?

The reason I ask is that the person whose war service I'm trying to trace is said to have been a farmer and therefore had an exemption from war service, but it is unlikely from what I know of him that he actually owned a farm. It is complicated by the fact that there's a record of an interview with him saying that "he worked in a naval establishment during the war", but there's no record of this as far as I know.

Thank you.

[Ron Abbott]

excuse my ignorance but were police officers included as exempt?

[kenf48]

In the original list of 'Certified Occupations' published on 7th July 1916 as guidance for the Tribunals there was a 'General Reservation' for "FARMERS (including market gardeners and fruit farmers) provided that it was his sole occupation and his personal labour or superintendence is indispensable for the proper cultivation of his holding; or if partly occupied in another occupation his personal labour or superintendence is indispensable for the proper cultivation of his holding and such cultivation is expedient and in the national interest. '

There were other exemptions of skilled workers in agriculture e.g.ploughman, however these were conditional on age. No distinction was made as to the terms of the holding i.e. tenant/owner, in fact farm bailiffs, stewards etc also could claim a conditional reservation as with the ploughman the 'condition' depended on age and marital status.

Post 32 above noted the different classes of reservation (exemption).

Some farmers signed their farms over to their sons who were of military age. Although there was opposition from farmers later in the war women worked on the farm which in the opinion of the Tribunal meant a man could be released for military service. As the need for men increased there were changes to the list but farmers were still regarded as essential.

Incidentally in the 1916 list all classes of worker engaged in shipbuilding were also entitled to a ‘General Reservation’.

"POLICE FORCES, Members of - to be treated as a certified occupation if their services are declared by their chief officer to be necessary in their civil employment."

Many Police Officers were reservists in 1914 and many police forces had arrangements with local Regiments or the Guards. A forum search should pay dividends.

The pamphlet is available for free from TNA, someone has posted the link on the forum fairly recently but I don’t have it to hand, but a search on Discovery under Military Service Act should find it.

Ken

[Ron Abbott]

Thanks Ken, appreciated.

[headgardener]

excuse my ignorance but were police officers included as exempt?

I seem to recall that a scheme was introduced in early 1918 allowing policemen to join up and for their places to be taken temporarily (duration of war) by lower grade men or discharged ex-servicemen. A number of groups of policemen joined the various foot-guards, although I think policemen from regional forces often went to the local county regiments. I contributed to a thread that discussed this topic a couple of months ago - it related to a policeman from Gloucester (or Gloucestershire). Try using the search terms, 'police' 'gloucestershire' 'scheme' 'guards'. Worth reading the whole thread for full details.

[David_Underdown]

In the original list of 'Certified Occupations' published on 7th July 1916 as guidance for the Tribunals there was a 'General Reservation' for "FARMERS (including market gardeners and fruit farmers) provided that it was his sole occupation and his personal labour or superintendence is indispensable for the proper cultivation of his holding; or if partly occupied in another occupation his personal labour or superintendence is indispensable for the proper

.

.

.

The pamphlet is available for free from TNA, someone has posted the link on the forum fairly recently but I don’t have it to hand, but a search on Discovery under Military Service Act should find it.

Ken

You may be thinking of material in MH 47/142 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C1428155 ? MH 47/142/1 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14091004 includes "List of Certified Occupations (July 1916)." (later versions seem to be included in subsequent items within MH 47/142)

[kenf48]

You may be thinking of material in MH 47/142 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C1428155 ? MH 47/142/1 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14091004 includes "List of Certified Occupations (July 1916)." (later versions seem to be included in subsequent items within MH 47/142)

Thank you, MH47/142/1 is the one I was referencing.

Ken

[The Scorer]

Thank you, MH47/142/1 is the one I was referencing.

Ken

How can I download and print a copy of the relevant section, please? Can I only do this at TNA, or can I do it on my computer?

Thanks.

[kenf48]

How can I download and print a copy of the relevant section, please? Can I only do this at TNA, or can I do it on my computer?

Thanks.

Either go to the second link provided by David above and browse content , or go direct here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14091004

click on add to basket go through the checkout process which will show £0.00 and the files will be split in two parts and you can download both. The pamphlet I referred to is shown towards the bottom of the list, i.e. List of certified occupations (July 1916).

Bear in mind there were amendments to the list as the war progressed see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14091005(also a free download)

They take some time to download so be patient! Any problems come back.

Ken

[The Scorer]

Either go to the second link provided by David above and browse content , or go direct here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14091004

click on add to basket go through the checkout process which will show £0.00 and the files will be split in two parts and you can download both. The pamphlet I referred to is shown towards the bottom of the list, i.e. List of certified occupations (July 1916).

Bear in mind there were amendments to the list as the war progressed see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14091005(also a free download)

They take some time to download so be patient! Any problems come back.

Ken

Thanks; I've made a request, and the link is going to be sent to my home computer .... I'll let everyone know how I get on next week!

[Phil Wood]

Can anyone explain the use of the term 'starred'. Reading between the lines it seems that it applied to men who had a reserved/key occupation, but was not as formal as certified or certificated. My local tribunals were certainly pretty free at destarring, whereas I suspect they would not remove a man's certificate so lightly.

It's as if someone went round putting an asterisk alongside names of farm workers, bakers, etc to flag them up as doing key jobs. Whereas certificates had to be formally applied for and awarded.

Phil

[kenf48]

On 21/03/2016 at 00:26, Phil Wood said:

Can anyone explain the use of the term 'starred'. Reading between the lines it seems that it applied to men who had a reserved/key occupation, but was not as formal as certified or certificated. My local tribunals were certainly pretty free at destarring, whereas I suspect they would not remove a man's certificate so lightly.

It's as if someone went round putting an asterisk alongside names of farm workers, bakers, etc to flag them up as doing key jobs. Whereas certificates had to be formally applied for and awarded.

Phil

I gave quite an extensive answer at post 4 of this thread

 

Essentially 'starred ' men were a short lived system created by the National Registration Act 1915 and what you say is broadly correct in that under the terms of the Act there were certain occupations where men were exempt from the pressure to enlist voluntarily and these men were 'starred' I.e. an asterisk placed against their name and carried over to the pink form which was given to the military for recruitment purposes.

'Badged' men were as you say subject to a more formal scheme and were issued a certificate and a badge, the numbers of which had to tally.

When conscription was introduced in March 1916 the certificate issued to 'badged' men afforded them exemption from military service.

'Starred' men, and those in reserved occupations had to apply for a certificate of exemption from the local tribunal the same as anyone else who came under the provisions of the Military Service Act and subsequent amendments.

Effectively there were no 'starred' men after the implementation of the MSA. As you have observed after the Act (and under the Group or Derby scheme which set them up) local Tribunals were 'pretty free at de starring'.

The list of reserved occupations, especially those jobs that could be done by women for example, became ever tighter as the war went on and the increased need for men to become soldiers.

See also http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/28365 as linked in previous post

Ken