H.M.S. Royal Sovereign

[Roy Evans]

Can anyone tell me anything about H.M.S. Royal Sovereign?

I am investigating a sailor from that ship who died 11th October 1918 and is buried in a local churchyard.

Roy

[per ardua per mare per terram]

'HMS Royal Sovereign' was a 15 inch battleship and spent most of the war at Scarpa Flow.

[kin47]

Hello

Henry Heaford died of the Spanish influenza pandemic, as did four other ratings in this period in 1918 in ROYAL SOVEREIGN. Six more ratings died before the end of 1920 from the same cause.

don

[Arthur]

Hi Roy,

ROYAL SOVEREIGN

Battleship,

Revenge Class, [1913 Programme]

Sister Ships: RAMILLIES; RESOLUTION; REVENGE & ROYAL OAK.

Built at Portsmouth Dockyard between 01/1914-05/1916.

1916-19 Grand Fleet, 1st Battleship Squadron.

1919-26 Atlantic Fleet, 1st Battleship Squadron.

1927-28 Refit.

1928-35 1st Battleship Squadron.

1936 Reserve, later became a Training-ship.

1937 Refit

1938-39 Home Fleet, 2nd Battleship Squadron.

1939-45 Conflict:

Early in war took part in Atlantic convoy operations as Flagship of Rear-Admiral Bonham-Carter, Halifax Escort Force.

1941 Withdrawn to join the 3rd Battleship Squadron, Eastern Fleet and her further war service was in eastern waters. Returned to the U.K. and was handed over in 1944 to the Soviet Union; where she operated in northern waters as ARCHANGELESK, her transfer being kept a close secret.

04/02/1949 She was handed back after much delay.

1949. Sold.

She was granted no Battle Honours for the period that she served with the Grand Fleet! Plus I have no notes regarding her war service.

Regards

Arthur

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Royal Sovereign earned no WWI battle honours: she missed out on Jutland because of engine trouble.

[Horace Bachelor]

Royal Sovereign in the inter war years.

It would appear that the Russians were very loathe to hand her back after WWII and her return was only procured with great difficulty. She was then promptly scrapped.

So why all the fuss to get her back? Might as well have allowed the Russians to keep her as she was hardly cutting edge technology.

Rich.

[kin47]

Hello

Partly the fuss over her return was on principle at the bargaining table post WW II, when the surviving German and Italian warships were divvied up amongst the allies. Countering Soviet demands, the British insisted on the return of the Lend Lease warships sent to Russia, as specified in the initial agreement.

The Americans already had a glut of surplus ships, so the bulk of the Lend Lease ships sent to the UK and directly to the U.S.S.R. were not required and were disposed of locally.

don

[Roy Evans]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Don, It seems ironic that my man had a 'safe' war only for the flu to get him at the end. Can I ask where you got your info from? I don't doubt you for an instant but do like to reference my research and it will save me sending for his death certificate.

Roy

[kin47]

Hello Roy

Information came from ADM 242.

If I can be of further assistance.

don

[MikB]

The Royal Sovereigns were the second of two classes, each of five "superdreadnoughts", commissioned early in WW1. Most were at Jutland, though it appears from an earlier post that the RS was not.

Their armour layout was supposedly slightly better than the earlier Queen Elizabeths, but they lost about 3 knots speed in comparison. The result was that most of the QEs were heavily modernised between the wars and proved capable of carrying out aggressive and successful actions (Narvik, Matapan), whilst the Rs were mostly used without great modernisation and only on escort duties.

Both classes proved vulnerable to catastrophic torpedo damage in WW2; Royal Oak sinking rapidly after a daring attack in Scapa Flow, and Barham (QE class) capsizing and then blowing up in the Mediterranean, both with great loss of life.

Regards,

MikB

[Michael Lowrey]

Of the five "R" class battleships, only two were at Jutland: Revenge and Royal Oak. Resolution only entered service in December 1916 while Ramillies hasn't completed until September 1917.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Roy Evans]

Thanks again for all the info.

Roy

[CULVERIN]

The 5 Royal Soverigns, as completed, let alone as designed, are probably the most maligned class of RN battleships of the 20th Century.

They were not Super Dreadnoughts, that monocle is reserved for the 13.5" Dreadnoughts, and as they came after the superlative 'fast division' QE's, it is against that class they are repeatedly and unjustifiably compared. They were not designed to perform the same tasks. In fact they are truly the first battleship, as the type is now generally known.

Fisher, when he returned to the Admiralty demanded to know what on earth had been ordered, with their construction already commenced, and stated they should have been designed and consequently constructed as battle cruisers. He was partly vindicated, with the construction of ships 6 & 7 being recast as Renown & Repulse. Ship 8, Resistance was cancelled. But then, Fisher had always decried Dreadnought, his ideal were the new turbine 12" armoured cruisers, aka the Invincible class.

However, when comparisons between the 5 RS and 5 QE are made, as built, the RS are the superior armoured ship for use in the line, where you would not find a QE. Hence the specially formed 5BS which solely comprised the QE's, neither Battleship, nor battle cruiser.

It is unfortunate that everyone simply looks at the speed each class could attain. The QE's needed nearly double the shp of an RS, for a mere 2-3 knots extra. Useful for the race back to base and that eagerly awaited run ashore.

Look further and the facts soon emerge.

[CULVERIN]

With the observation in #11 of the times both Resolution and Ramillies entered service, this pair were both much delayed due to circumstances unforeseen at the time they were ordered.

The situation with Resolution is highly convoluted and involves 7, yes seven, other warships and 3 builders, whilst Ramillies had bulges added, then altered, then redesigned, rebuilt and finally when launched, it all went awry. Big time.

Reso was due to be 1st in service, as originally contracted and commenced. The day she was launched on 14 Jan 1915 by Palmers, well on schedule, was the day that yard actually agreed to help out the Admiralty with other vital construction of the highest priority.

There was total panic stations on the Tyne.

The small print is invariably worth close scrutiny.Very close.

[MikB]

However, when comparisons between the 5 RS and 5 QE are made, as built, the RS are the superior armoured ship for use in the line, where you would not find a QE. Hence the specially formed 5BS which solely comprised the QE's, neither Battleship, nor battle cruiser.

It is unfortunate that everyone simply looks at the speed each class could attain. The QE's needed nearly double the shp of an RS, for a mere 2-3 knots extra. Useful for the race back to base and that eagerly awaited run ashore.

Look further and the facts soon emerge.

There's no point in superior armour if you can't bring the enemy to action, and that's what the R's couldn't do.

The QEs proved capable of withstanding serious punishment at Jutland without losing speed - if the R's had been in the same position it's doubtful their protection would have enabled them to survive being caught by Scheer as they probably would have been. Of course, they never would've been in that position because their speed wouldn't've allowed them to take that role in the first place.

Later in WW2 those 3-4 knots made the difference between getting into gun actions with the enemy and a life as a convoy escort waiting hopelessly for the enemy to accept a gun engagement with you. At that time, there simply couldn't've been a more significant distinguishing factor between the classes.

In addition, of course, oil firing made the QEs cleaner, simpler to operate and more spacious internally.

Regards,

MikB

[CULVERIN]

MikB, the reason the 4 QE's comprised the 5BS (at Jutland) was for their ability to operate independently of any of the other battle squadrons. The 5BS was termed the fast squadron. They were quite capable of looking after themselves as you note, and in that respect, as a class the 5 duly became the most famous ships of their type, seeing extensive and valuable service to their demise post WW2.

And that is the rub. You are moving too far into the future, their exploits in the next big conflict were due to the extensive modernisations lavished on them. But that was 20 years from the period this Great War forum encompasses.

This thread is actually titled HMS Royal Sovereign.

To re focus on that individual ship, she achieved little in her 30 years service. She was in fact the final 1 of the 10 RS and QE classes to meet her demise.

However, i shall return with a particular achievement by an RS (see below), but whether i do it here or under her own name, i shall decide shortly.

Although the class are always commonly known as the Royal Sovereign class, i consider this to be incorrect. Portsmouth dockyard had always from Dreadnought built the 1st of all subsequent classes, but officially in paperwork from this era, Revenge class is the correct term.

If you compare the armour between these 2 classes, there are few similarities, the 5 R's were a departure from previous ships. Virtually the entire difference in weights between the 2 classes is for machinery, which i noted previously, the QE's needed to attain that extra 2-3 knots.

Excluding this, it is the very reason the R's were so suited to serving in the line of battle. They did not need to run away from another big gun ship. they could comfortably handle anything afloat, and defeat them.

If you look at Hood, the true battlecruiser equivalent to the QE's, then the extra shp needed for her is astonishing. But not surprising. Every extra knot needed approx 10,000 shp to achieve. That is 3 times what the R's could muster and nearly double that of the QE's.

A reminder.

RS or R - Royal Sovereign, Revenge or R class. 5 ships. Not Renown or Repulse.

QE - Queen Elizabeth class. Also 5 ships.

[MikB]

And that is the rub. You are moving too far into the future, their exploits in the next big conflict were due to the extensive modernisations lavished on them. But that was 20 years from the period this Great War forum encompasses.

.

The modernisations weren't 'lavished on' the QEs. They were upgraded to suit the WW2 they were expected to fight - the modernisations were made because they were fast enough to be used in actions that justified them, whilst the Rs weren't.

The Rs were designed to fight line-of-battle fleet actions like Tsushima, or like Jutland was supposed to be from the British viewpoint. But this kind of battle was already fading from probability, although nobody could reasonably have predicted that until WW1 was almost over. They were, in fact but unknowably, obsolescent when completed.

The Rs probably saved a lot of ships and lives in WW2 by their mere presence on convoy escort - because engaging them would still present a serious risk to any enemy.

Regards,

MikB

[bill24chev]

There's no point in superior armour if you can't bring the enemy to action, and that's what the R's couldn't do.

The QEs proved capable of withstanding serious punishment at Jutland without losing speed - if the R's had been in the same position it's doubtful their protection would have enabled them to survive being caught by Scheer as they probably would have been. Of course, they never would've been in that position because their speed wouldn't've allowed them to take that role in the first place.

Later in WW2 those 3-4 knots made the difference between getting into gun actions with the enemy and a life as a convoy escort waiting hopelessly for the enemy to accept a gun engagement with you. At that time, there simply couldn't've been a more significant distinguishing factor between the classes.

In addition, of course, oil firing made the QEs cleaner, simpler to operate and more spacious internally.

Regards,

MikB

The QE's, at Jutland, proved to be capable of both giving and taking heavy punishment. I beleive that if the R's had been in a similer situation they would have been equal to the task. I do not think Sheer could have caught and destroyed the R's becaus their performance was at least has good as the German dreadnoughts so they could have kept their distance. Being redesigned for oil firing ther high speed endurance would also have been better, the coal fired German shiops relied on human muscle power that would in a realativly short time weaken. Also with reference to Jutland the speed of the high Seas fleet was compromised by having the older pre-dreadnoughts in the battle line.

Of course we are talking "what if". The R's were used in a totaly different way to the QE's, being assigned individualy to different sqadrons/divisions of the Grand Fleet.

In WW2 the US battleships salvaged after Pearl Harbor had a similer performance to the R's. Admittedly with the latest gunnery control, they performed very well in one of the phases of Leyte Gulf so speed was not a factor then.

[MikB]

The QE's, at Jutland, proved to be capable of both giving and taking heavy punishment. I beleive that if the R's had been in a similer situation they would have been equal to the task. I do not think Sheer could have caught and destroyed the R's becaus their performance was at least has good as the German dreadnoughts so they could have kept their distance.

You could be right, of course, but the margin was much smaller than the QEs, and their lower speed would thus have exposed them to fire from the HSF for longer during the Run To The North, increasing the chance of crippling damage

In WW2 the US battleships salvaged after Pearl Harbor had a similer performance to the R's. Admittedly with the latest gunnery control, they performed very well in one of the phases of Leyte Gulf so speed was not a factor then.

They were fortunate in having the enemy come to them, to be surprised. The Pacific war rarely presented such opportunities, and the Atlantic one never did. The secrecy surrounding 'Cerberus' was maintained precisely to prevent such an eventuality.

Regards,

MikB

[bill24chev]

You could be right, of course, but the margin was much smaller than the QEs, and their lower speed would thus have exposed them to fire from the HSF for longer during the Run To The North, increasing the chance of crippling damage

They were fortunate in having the enemy come to them, to be surprised. The Pacific war rarely presented such opportunities, and the Atlantic one never did. The secrecy surrounding 'Cerberus' was maintained precisely to prevent such an eventuality.

Regards,

MikB

The QE's spent most of their time up to November 1941 in the Eastern Med. There they were too slow to catch the modern Italian battleships and Barham was the only one of both classes to actualy be sunk at sea.Barham had been on convoy escort duty in the Atlantic and her presence probably saved a convoy. the convoy was spotted by the German Battlecruisers, and they decided not to attack but use their speed to go away.

Resolution survived torpedo damage and as we know Royal Oak, Valiant & the QE herself were "sunk" in harbour with the two QE's salvaged and repaired.

Of all the WW1 vintage capital shiops I beleive only the Japanese had modernised their ships to have the speed to match the modern ships built in the late 1930's and during WW2, but they were undergunned and relativly weak in armour protection.