Rifle Bucket?

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

HI all

can anyone identify what its purpose is for made by HGR 1916

is it a rifle bucket? Somone said to me to hold antiaircraft mount

for the hotchkiss MG.

Regards Jonathan.

[Guest]

I am goint to stick my neck out and say it could be cavalry issue for carrying a rifle on horseback. I have never seen a picture of one of British pattern, but the German cavalry certainly used them.

[bernardmcilwaine]

the electoral hesse regt No14 carried a carbine holster very similar to this when in the field,the carbine being only a very short firearm,bernard

[Joe Sweeney]

Jonathan,

It looks like the case for the Hotchkiss LMG. I'll have to look at the LoC's, I don't have all LoC's but I do have wsome that deal with the HLMG equipment-particularly the Pack equipment.

I've not been at home for awhile so haven't posted due to uncertainty, but will return tomorrow and I'll check.

Joe Sweeney

[bcerha]

I am goint to stick my neck out and say it could be cavalry issue for carrying a rifle on horseback. I have never seen a picture of one of British pattern, but the German cavalry certainly used them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Angie,

Now you have...this is the British pattern of Rifle bucket used by the Cavalry in WW1. It fitted on the right hand side of the 1902 or 1912 Universal Pattern Saddle (P02 saddle picture also attached) and very often had the cavalrymans circular mess tins strapped to them. As you can see this is not the same as the item shown above - but it is a British Army SMLE rifle bucket. I am fortunate enough to own one and they are pretty scarce. Sadly with Mechanisation in the 30's many were simply destroyed the leather being cut away and the brass fittings saved and I gather melted down - what a shame!

Hope this helps

regards

David

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Jonathan,

It looks like the case for the Hotchkiss LMG. I'll have to look at the LoC's, I don't have all LoC's but I do have wsome that deal with the HLMG equipment-particularly the Pack equipment.

I've not been at home for awhile so haven't posted due to uncertainty, but will return tomorrow and I'll check.

Joe Sweeney

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be great Joe if you could would be very intrested.

I should have said it was broad arrow marked.

I have other leather Items Made by H.G.R a British company.

You guys are always talking about the LoC'S, being from N.Z I am not aware of them are they a records thing?

Thanks for the pics of your rifle bucket and saddle I am looking for the mounted signals bucket which is the same but has attachments off the side to hold a tripod or signal flags.

thanks everyone.

[Captain Dave]

To me it looks like the ammo carrige system for the Hotchkis MG.

They were arranged in metal strips about a foot long and I have seen a configeration where two of the leather holders were slung together, one either side of the horses neck.

The strap at the right hand side of the holder looks like it is designed to join to something.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

To me it looks like the ammo carrige system for the Hotchkis MG.

They were arranged in metal strips about a foot long and I have seen a configeration where two of the leather holders were slung together, one either side of the horses neck.

The strap at the right hand side of the holder looks like it is designed to join to something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi

I no a couple of friends that own the ammo carriage system for the Hotchkis MG,

and the y a not like above they are like saddle bags a one piece construction and are rectangular

in shape with a stud like the saddle bags, for closer

The above bucket/bag is sloped and made to fit something.

The one above is a bit more like the farrier,s bag in look but it is not, like below.

Jonathan.

[picardowoods]

Hi All

Cavalry/Pack equipment isn't exactly my thing, but I thought I would add this image from the fitting instructions for the Hotchkiss Pack Eq 1917. As you can see it's not a match, but the item in question is 1916 dated, so may be a previous pattern!

Just my twopence worth!

Carl

[Joe Sweeney]

Jonathan,

This is an extract from the LoC for the 17 pack equipment from May 1917 (LoC 18394).

This shows the gun cover on the pack with HLMG in it. Not exactly the same as this version was made of canvas with the toe of leather, very similar in shape to your leather case. It replaced a "Case, gun Hotchkiss" which was made of leather. Unfortunately I did not save the LoC from that version so can't be 100% certain what you have is the Case for Hotchkiss.

Carl,

The arrangement you show is the "Bucket" for the Hotchkiss. This was meant to provide an alternate means of carrying the LMG with the UP Saddle and not on the pack.

Joe Sweeney

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Jonathan,

This is an extract from the LoC for the 17 pack equipment from May 1917 (LoC 18394).

This shows the gun cover on the pack with HLMG in it. Not exactly the same as this version was made of canvas with the toe of leather, very similar in shape to your leather case. It replaced a "Case, gun Hotchkiss" which was made of leather. Unfortunately I did not save the LoC from that version so can't be 100% certain what you have is the Case for Hotchkiss.

Carl,

The arrangement you show is the "Bucket" for the Hotchkiss. This was meant to provide an alternate means of carrying the LMG with the UP Saddle and not on the pack.

Joe Sweeney

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joe and Carl thanks for the Information its been great.

I have always liked the Hotchkiss I would like to own one day.

They have one in the Auckland Museum here very nice Used by our Mounted Machine Gun Squadron in Palestine Sinai.

Can you tell me how you get access to the LoCs

I would would like to find out about the pack saddle gear for Signals equipment

and for the up saddle do you no if there is any info on it?

Regards Jonathan

[Joe Sweeney]

Jonathan

The LoCs are found in a few(very few) library's, The nearest set to me is in Ottawa, Canada. They were published monthly with Army Orders.

Any questions on British saddlery should be asked in the Society of the Military Horses forum:

Military Horse Forum UP saddles

There a guys on that forum who know far more about British saddlery than I would ever hope.

Joe Sweeney

[picardowoods]

Jonathan

Did you get my email? It only added to Joes last post, that there has been a partial reprint in 5 volumes by I D Skennerton, available of the net.

Carl

[drweiler]

I have an open topped Webley V1 holster with a similar mark 'HGR 17'. Can't seem to find any history on HGR. Were they a U.K. manufacturer of leather field gear? Thanks, Don

[Joe Sweeney]

I have an open topped Webley V1 holster with a similar mark 'HGR 17'. Can't seem to find any history on HGR. Were they a U.K. manufacturer of leather field gear? Thanks, Don

Don,

HGR were Hepburn, Gale and Ross.

They were heavily involved in manufacture of leather and Web for the British Army.

Joe Sweeney

[Pat Holscher]

Regarding methods of carrying automatic weapons on horseback in cavalry units, we recently had some early Canadian film footage that was linked in on The Military Horse Society website in which a glimpse of that can be seen. The last post on the topic would be several months back, but it is good film and worth seeing.

[BLUEBELL]

I think the bucket that started off this thread is a tool bucket. Will check my research files when I have a moment.

[pmaasz]

Here is a picture (I hope as I've not uploaded a pic before) of a cavalry trooper with his SMLE rifle bucket.

[pmaasz]

Further comments on this topic. I omitted to say that the subject bucket is not for the SMLE rifle, as my and other pics show. If it is for the Hotchkiss, and the shape looks right including the left (under) side which would appear to fit the regulator, then I find it hard to imagine it being intended to be attached to the trooper's saddle. The Hotchkiss weighs 28lbs, say about 32lbs plus in its bucket. That would be difficult to manage without a corresponding weight on the near side. The Hotchkiss in 'my' regiment was always carried on pack-horses, never by the mounted troopers.

[centurion]

The enclosed link leads to some descriptions of the manner in which the Hotchkiss was carried by cavalry

Hotchkiss

[pmaasz]

Thanks, centurion. Very interesting lead.

[BLUEBELL]

Re the bucket starting this thread.

I have a photo from a friend's collection of a bucket almost identical though with a longer top flap.

The Lists of Changes show a drawing (woodcut) of a bucket very similar. Attachment straps and top hanging strap all similar. Top flap longer and more rounded. The bucket is more tapered. B

[BLUEBELL]

whoops....what happened!?.

.....B But it has the hole at the top in the flap and the hole halfway down in the side...as the bucket under discuission.

The LoC is ...no.5895 ...28th May 1889. Intended for mounted men R.E.

Designed to carry any of the following:- Axe, pick, head..helve.

Axe, felling. Bar, boring, steel. Bar, crow. Spade. Saw (hand). And any small tools.

It was not intended that anything should be carried in the bucket in normal circumstances...to avoid straining the saddle....tools..etc..usually in the carts and wagons. When circumstances require, can be transferred to the bucket.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

Yes I had identified it as a RE bucket last year, I just forgot about this thread I started

A few were on ebay last year, WW1 and WW2 dated

the Hotchkiss bucket is nothing like this bucket, and also the pack horse version is canvas with leather fittings.

I would be very difficult trying to pull a hotchkiss out of a bucket, that is of not a open type.

it would be near impossible in a rush due to the weight.

Here is a illustration by me, of the Hotchkiss bucket set up as in the Locs and manuals set up for a project I am working on.

cheers Jonathan

[pmaasz]

The bucket (first picture) has a particular shape to the LH taper, which suggests it is designed for a specific tool or tools. For miscellaneous tools as suggested by Cavalry Trooper surely it would just have a GP shape, and would not need even to be tapered? It would be useful to know the dimensions which would help confirm or disprove its Hotchkiss purpose.