Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 I have two early postcards of sites near Ypres, which I'd be interested in knowing the locations of. Both show cemeteries, one just a cemetery in a wood, the other a cemetery next to a ruined building. The captions (they are both NELS cards) don't add a lot except "near Ypres". I just wondered if anyone has got these cards and knows the locations, or might perhaps (maybe a long shot!) could identify them? Of course, the graves on these cemeteries may have since been moved, and they may no longer exist, but any thoughts appreciated! First photo: - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Second photo: - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 They look to me like the same cemetery. Thanks for posting them, I look forward to finding out. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 'Ruined building' and 'a wood' as only clues ofcourse makes it extremely difficult to pinpoint the locations of both cemeteries. But since the first language used on both cards is French, I'd go for the southern part of Ypres, especially Kemmel, which was a French controlled region by the end of the war. It still doesn't answer your question, but perhaps it's a start. I don't think there's a big chance any of these cemeteries still exist (like you already suggested yourself). Simply look at the numbers: 500 British cemeteries in 1919, about 170 nowadays. And lots of them were created years after the war. But let's still hope someone can identify them! regards Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Simon, I did wonder if they were the same - could the building in the foreground of picture 1 be the same as that in the right background in picture 2? However, the tower structure in 1 looks quite different to me. It could still be the same cemetery from different angles though......................let's see if anyone else has any thoughts? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 'Ruined building' and 'a wood' as only clues ofcourse makes it extremely difficult to pinpoint the locations of both cemeteries. But since the first language used on both cards is French, I'd go for the southern part of Ypres, especially Kemmel, which was a French controlled region by the end of the war. It still doesn't answer your question, but perhaps it's a start. I don't think there's a big chance any of these cemeteries still exist (like you already suggested yourself). Simply look at the numbers: 500 British cemeteries in 1919, about 170 nowadays. And lots of them were created years after the war. But let's still hope someone can identify them! regards Roel <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Roel, You could be right - although I have quite a few NELS cards, and others which show locations actually in Ypres are also in French then English in terms of language. However, I don't know the dates the photos were taken or when the cards were published; none of them havethat information on them. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Wasn't there a request on the forum a month or so ago asking for photos of cemeteries in Belgium which had been relocated? I can't find it now. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Simon, There was - I think it was Aurel Sercu asking for pictures of Belgian or German cemeteries that had been relocated, rather than English ones - although Aurel may have some idea of possible locations of these if he reads this thread! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 I think that the photographs are of the same cemetery. The building in the top pic. is off to the left in the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Tom, I think youmay be right, although does the cemetery look a lot closer to the building in the top picture than it appears in the bottom one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Alan, Of course I am very interested in this thread, but I'm afraid that so far I cannot help you. The two cemeteries do not look familiar at all. The wood might help, theoretically, but these woods have disappeared by now in most cases. The same cemetery from a different angle ? No idea. Personally I think that would be a coincidence. These are not the only 2 Nels postcards, and that these two (found where ?) would show the same cemetery would be a coincidence. Unfortunately Nels cards are not numbered. If they had been that would have been relevant of course. French text ? So : south of Ypres ? Perhaps. But there were French cemeteries in the north as well. (Actually the few French I have were in the north. (Boezinge of course ...) And yes, I am in the middle of doing some research on this, and have been for a few months. And I really wish I was in the "middle" now, for this is quite a job. (Isn't it Jacky ?) However, doing this research I think I can say that since the two cemeteries you are posting are on postcards, the chance that they still exist may be considered higher. Maybe a bit higher than Roel thinks. But I have to say that my opinion is only based on the fact that of all the postcards I have seen, practically all show cemeteries that are still there, not relocated or cleared ones. (I'm speaking of British cemeteries now ; for French and German cemeteries the situation is different.) On the other hand somehow I hope they do not exist any longer, for that would make the postcards more exeptional and important. One more thing. And this is a question to Roel. So far the number of cleared cemeteries I have found must be approx. 420 or 430 or more. (I haven't made an exact count recently.) And this is for all nationalities : over 165 British, over 220 German, 30 or so French, an a few Belgian. Roel, you write : 170 British cemeteries now in the Salient, which is correct. You also write : 500 British cemeteries in 1919. Could you please confirm it, or let me know where you fond this figure. (It's not that I don't believe it, I'm just extremely interested.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres1418 Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 I'm going with my gut feeling here and saying 'polygon wood' only got the second pic and did not see the building but after another look i'm still going with polygon, i'm proberbly off the mark but nine out of ten times if i go with it i'm usually right. its the sixth sence! Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Mandy, I had Polygon Wood (and Ploegsteert Wood) in mind too. But don't you think that the graves on the postcard are too close to the road. (That is if that "road" is the same as the present road... Alan, there is a tiny sign in the left of the first postcard, near the corrugated iron. Is there any lettering on it. ? But I suppose it is totally unreadable ? Not even with a magnifying glass ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres1418 Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 it's plug street i'm thinking not polygon wood, sorry everyone, but it is late and i have worked 12 hours in the A&E dept here in east sussex forgive me, mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Hello, seems the same cemetery . The photo 2 would have been taken from th buiding ruined looking to the cemetery. Just a feeling, especialy based on the broken tree near the white cross. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Alan, there is a tiny sign in the left of the first postcard, near the corrugated iron. Is there any lettering on it. ? But I suppose it is totally unreadable ? Not even with a magnifying glass ? Aurel <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aurel, I've looked at the sign through the only magnifying glass we have in the house (which is one of the children's!), and although if I squint I almost think I can see the word "Military" at the top, and possibly "No." (as in number) below, I can't really say that I am at all sure - and anyway, that doesn't help with the location. I tried scanning the area of the sign at the highest resolution on my scanner but couldn't distinguish any letters at all by this. I was interested in your comment above that many of the postcards of British cemeteries are of those that still exist today - others that I have certainly are, although many of these must be some time later, as they have mainly the stone headstones. These two are obviously fairly early pictures, and I haven't seen too many such around. I must say I also wondered if this could be somewhere in Ploegsteert Wood - I think there were buildings near the wood before the war? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Is this not the Chateau Rosenberg cemetery on Hill 63, which was moved to Berks Cemetery Extension in the 1930s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 7 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2005 Paul, Could be - do you have any particular reason to think it is this one? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 it's plug street i'm thinking not polygon wood, mandy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mandy, I'm not sure about Plugstreet Wood Cemetery either. I have a few modern photos of it but none showing the 'road', but if I remember correctly the cemetery is not as close to what on trench maps is named 'Hunter Avenue'. (the one with now Toronto and Rifle House cemeteries at the ends.) Also : looking at the same sketch (in T. Spagnoly & T. Smith's A Walk Round Plugstreet), I don't see any building (the one you can see on postcard 2, on the right.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 I couldn’t reconcile the ruin with the photo of Villa Roozenberg (which accompanied Tony Spagnoly's article in Stand To! in 1981). I suggest that photo 1 shows the remains of a dressing station established in a ruined chateau, with the usual attendant cemetery. Photo 2 is definitely the same cemetery viewed from the ruins, hence the raised viewpoint. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 Is this not the Chateau Rosenberg cemetery on Hill 63, which was moved to Berks Cemetery Extension in the 1930s? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Paul, Good idea ! You could be right indeed. So I found photos of Rosenberg Chateau, in 'A Walk Round Plugstreet', but can't come to a conclusion, (pages 62 and 63). What makes me doubt is that on the postcard the (only) window lintel that can be seen is curved (bowed), whereas on the photos they appear to be straight. But I'm not sure... Aurel Edited - Sorry Simon, I hadn't seen your posting when I wrote mine. What you write makes sense. And maybe, on second looks, the windows on the very first floor are curbed indeed. Should there be another photo of the ruins with part of the cemetery in sight ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 I was just thinking along the lines that there were very few British, established, cemeteries (such as this one obviously was) in the grounds of a chateau. The only other location I can think of is Potijze, but am not sure if that had trees in the grounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 Paul, No need to say that my very first thought went to Boezingeof course. There were graves in the Chateau park too (later moved to Artillery Wood Cemetery). But the area does not look like Boezinge at all. Besides, I have photos of Boezinge Chateau park with graves, and they are very different from the two postcards this thread started with. And maybe the Boezinge Chateau cemeteries were not "established" as you call it. (I'm not sure I understand. Organized after the war ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 7 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2005 Thanks for all the input so far, this is fascinating! Conincidentally, I had already ordered A Walk Round Plugtreet from N&MP a few days ago, so hopefully it will arrive in the next few days and I can have a look at the pictures mentioned. It would be nice to be as definitive as possible - Simon, would you be able to post the picture from Stand To that you referred to? Or is this the same picture as in the book? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 (edited) I was just thinking along the lines that there were very few British, established, cemeteries (such as this one obviously was) in the grounds of a chateau. The only other location I can think of is Potijze, but am not sure if that had trees in the grounds? I think it is Potijze. Imagine the elephant shelter without sand bags, and also compare the wooden shelter built to the right of the chateau with that in the postcard. Simon And even the wiggly tree branch on the extreme right of both photos! Edited 7 June , 2005 by Simon Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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