Good luck.

[dplatt]

Enthusiasts,

Did you miss the erased pair of medals two days ago? Don't worry! The same lucky dealer (no doubt after much searching and at great expense to himself) has managed to procure another pair of 'Erased medals'! On sale now through SPEEDBID.

British War and Victory Medals.1914-18. Naming Erased. Lot #354519

Isn't he a lucky man? That's seven pairs this month alone!

I sincerely hope the name and number weren't those for which you were searching or, Heaven forbid, your relatives!!!

Still, perhaps the same dealer runs a restamping service, indistinguishable from the original stamping! At a price of course.

Good luck bidding.

David (The Pessimist).

[Derek Robertson]

Does anyone know this guy?

One erased medal I can understand but he has a production line

[dplatt]

Does anyone know this guy?

One erased medal I can understand but he has a production line 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Certainly, I know him and I put his name down in one of my notes printed in this forum. He was found to have a great number of supporters who could vouch for his professionalism.

I put his reply to me in which he stated his credentials.

Mysteriously the whole lot was removed from the forum, probably by the guardians.

I agree, it's too many and he doesn't even keep a record of whose names he is rubbing out each time - it's for money you see so it's all above board.

David.

[squirrel]

And another step along the way to ensuring that the soldier/sailor/airman will not be remembered. Unforgivable!

[bernardmcilwaine]

And another step along the way to ensuring that the soldier/sailor/airman will not be remembered. Unforgivable!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

is it him thats erasing them or is he buying them off someone else,ever thought that they could be nicked,unwanted erased medals are bad enough,but someones stolen memories,the no good ********,bernard

[Max]

I would like to remind members that any unfounded or unproven accusation on this forum will be deleted and the thread binned.

Andy

[dplatt]

I did "ask" the gentleman if he was erasing them or if he knew the person who is doing it but he became very defensive.

If you like I could reprint the reply I got from him, doctored of course in the light of Andy's kind reminder.

I have directed the seller to this forum in the hope that he may realise what a pariah is the person who is defacing the medals.

Wasn't it Dylan who said "Money doesn't talk, it swears....." ? For, in this case, it seems to be the driving force.

David.

[Max]

I did "ask" the gentleman if he was erasing them or if he knew the person who is doing it but he became very defensive.

If you like I could reprint the reply I got from him, doctored of course in the light of Andy's kind reminder.

I have directed the seller to this forum in the hope that he may realise what a pariah is the person who is defacing the medals.

Wasn't it Dylan who said "Money doesn't talk, it swears....." ?  For, in this case, it seems to be the driving force.

David.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By highlighting the lot in your initial posting everyone now knows the username of the seller in question.

Comments have been made to the character of this person, including the word pariah in your posting above, without the first shred of evidence that he/she is responsible for erasing these medals. I do not mind anyone discussing in general terms the rights or wrongs of erasing medals but I will not tolerate, and neither will the rest of the moderators, anyones reputation being sullied or dragged through the mud on this forum.

Andy

[dplatt]

By highlighting the lot in your initial posting everyone now knows the username of the seller in question.

Comments have been made to the character of this person, including the word pariah in your posting above, without the first shred of evidence that he/she is responsible for erasing these medals. I do not mind anyone discussing in general terms the rights or wrongs of erasing medals but I will not tolerate, and neither will the rest of the moderators, anyones reputation being sullied or dragged through the mud on this forum.

Andy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is the eraser a pariah or not? I have not said that the seller is the eraser!

Surely, Andy, I have the right to an opinion and this forum is dedicated to those who offered all in the great War. They must deserve some defence. They certainly offered to defend me and my way of life.

----edited------

David.

[PPCLI]

David,

Thank you for highlighting this current 'trade'. I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but you have to remember what type of world we are now living in - you are not allowed to say anything about anyone because you are infringing their personal rights, unfortunately, some people very big on rights, but not so bothered about responsibility

Of course, as with many situations, the problem is not necessarily the seller or the eraser, it is the buyers. If there was no market for erased medals you wouldn't find people erasing them just for the hell of it. All these medal collectors who think that by buying an erased medal that they can then 'finish off' a trio, etc are the misguided ones. I know it's quite unlikely, but perhaps an erased BWM a collector bought to complete 'their' MM set was actually the soldier's original medal - ah, the irony!

I'm sure this has been discussed to death elsewhere on the forum, but it does no harm to remind everyone of the trade that appears to be flourishing and perhaps make newcomers to the collecting scene appreciate the harm that is being done by perpetuating this business. So, thank you David.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Derek Robertson]

It would seem from correspondance that I have had that the dealer in question is a member of The Orders and Medals Research Society (OMRS).

The third and fourth aims of this Society are quite relevant here and are:

3. To publish such information, particularly the results of individual research, as may be practicable.

4. To do all such lawful things as, in the opinion of the Committee, shall further the objects of the Society.

Interesting, if you consider that if every medal that had its recipients name erased then there would be a great deal less to research!

Thanks for posting David, I believe that the very same lucky seller has appeared on similar threads on medal related websites.

[Boreenatra]

Just to add my perhaps naive perspective, but is it not the seller of the original medals who our main gripes should be directed at. I couldn't part with any family medals, how can, or more importantly why would any body want to. This is just a personal view and i've read the countless discussions we've had, but at least if we don't buy them then maybe we can persuade others not to do so . After all, if the buyer knows it's been erased, then they will know it's not genuine. In a moral sense,it defeats the object. Regards Steve.

[Derek Robertson]

After all, if the buyer knows it's been erased, then they will know it's not genuine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve,

I'm afraid that the medals in question are genuine, they have just had their origins erased.

Some of these erased medals may be used to complete groups etc but what is to stop them being renamed by their new owners?

There are cans and there are worms where ever you look on this subject.

[Boreenatra]

Sorry Derek I just meant they were not the original medals given to their own family. To actually have someone elses medal with your grandads name on it will in my book always make it a fraud. It never was his and never will be. Somehow, for me at least, two memories are tarnished at the same time. Regards Steve.

[DirtyDick]

It could be no more than an accumulation of unnamed medals over a long period of collecting: lots of this went on when veterans wanted to replaced pawned or missing campaign medals; they have been on the market for almost as long as they have been in existence.

Before now they might not have been worth selling, but given the recent price increases and interest in reforming relatives' lost medals, that has changed.

Just a thought ...

[Boreenatra]

But DD is that what's really going on here? Regards Steve.

[dplatt]

I was incensed by the way my mails to this forum had been edited, so much so that I deemed not to read or write again to TGWF. Now I'm writing to say a thank you to those like-minded people who are offended by this trade.

The seller and I have been having words, too. He now informs me he has only two pairs of erased medals left for sale (one pair and one BWM has since been advertised) so we shall soon see an end to, at least, one trader's 'stock'.

I hope this mail isn't edited too as I, genuinely, wish to thank fellow enthusiasts.

Regards,

David.

[Derek Robertson]

David,

If you read this then please don't go.

Whatever "moderation" has taken place, we all know what we think of those who trade in erased medals. And we all know what you mean even if you have been "chopped".

And, as a fellow enthusiast I'm delighted that you've had some success with the seller of these vandalised medals. Well done mate.

And if you have gone (I really hope not) I'll just have to keep my eye on the dealer in question for those of us enthusiasts who remain.

[Guest]

I couldn't part with any family medals, how can, or more importantly why would any body want to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking personally, as someone who is not a collector of anything in the sense meant here, family medals would not mean a lot to me. I don't do family history either. Not criticising those who do though. It simply takes all sorts.

You might not part with family medals, but somewhere down the generations it is not impossible that someone will.

I think we have to be careful here. Many of us may deplore the practice of erasing medals, but as far as I know it is perfectly legal. If you tell someone that you don't like them carrying out their legal activity, they are quite entitled to tell you to take a............

[Piscator]

Whilst it may be perfectly legal to erase named medal's it is rather sad that someones name is erased from a little piece of their history, who know's it may have been my own Grandfather's medal. Personally I wouldnt buy any of these articles, even if I was looking to match a group up, I'd still leave the original name on them, who knows they may have an interesting story behind the recipient, perhaps one worthy of research?

Len

[DirtyDick]

But DD is that what's really going on here? Regards Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Steve

I would think in some cases, people would erase commonplace WW1 medals - specifically non-casualty ASC, RA, RN - if they realised they might get £5 or so more with each sale.

Given that, however, to be viable one would first have to obtain the medals - through whatever means - and spend time and money (assuming it could not be done in house) erasing them; thus making it sensible only if done on a large scale.

Of course, such medals taken as the by-product of recent large scale thefts (from regimental museums and the BL etc.) would fit the bill, because they could not be sold safely in any other way whilst still named.

This notwithstanding, there are undoubtedly a large number of erased medals dating from the time of their issue: the recipients having lost their medals buy some from an antique or pawn shop: the pawn shop having already removed the naming prior to putting them up for sale - then a common practice - or the new owner doing likewise.

Until the last decade or so, named WW1 medals could be seen regularly in antique and junk shops, littering boxes of brica-brac and could be picked up for the present day equivalent of £5 or so. (Happy days, although I was too young to have anything else than pocket money to spend on them. ) In such circumstances, erased medals would have been near-impossible to sell to those few collectors, who rejected them due to the anonymity of the recipient or the fact that the medal had somehow been damaged by the process.

Nowadays, consequent to the increased prices of such items, the erased examples become saleable; especially to those whose interest in replacing relatives' ;lost medals has been stimulated through genealogy and possessing, through the Internet, a ready market.

I would suggest that sellers and collectors of many decades' standing would have accumulated a fair number of such items over the years in mixed lots and house clearances etc. and have recently picked up on the fact that there is a market for them. In the case of the seller in question, I would suggest that this is the most likely scenario.

The main priority is to encourage people not to buy the erased examples already extant, or at least discourage it through their achieving less at auction; this entails making those who are just interested in getting an erased representative group consider that their actions might fuel further erasing of named medals and lead to the medals they seek being erased (or, paradoxically, being sold to them once erased as replacements).

I would say congratulations to David for highlighting this problem, even if we do all have to - correctly - be most circumspect in case we besmerch the integrity of an established medal dealer. Through threads such as these, people might stumble upon the downside of purchasing erased medals and thus stop any entrepreneurs - who are probably financially misguided in doing so - from erasing medals deliberately in order to sell for marginally more money, thus destroying the Nation's heritage and denying the chance of a family "reunite".

Cheers

Richard

[PhilB]

Just a few comments, DD.

1/ It`s not easy to "expertly" erase a medal. Give someone a file and a bit of softish metal and they soon find that filing isn`t as easy as it looks. (My enlightenment came at 3 Trg Bn REME, Arborfield, by the way, not the back room of some medal dealer!)

2/ I don`t recall a time when erased medals were common. They`ve always been about, but not in any quantity.

3/ Knockers (a venerable trade, now seemingly defunct) never seemed to turn up erased medals - only dealers!

4/ I can`t think of any instance in which erasing a medal would increase its value - unless it was "hot".

5/ Surely all the erased medals in dealers` drawers would have disappeared when the scrap price of silver rocketed - as did very many named BWMs.

"So what?" I hear you say. Well, I`m not quite sure! Phil B

[DirtyDick]

Hello Phil

Sure, there are doubtless a number of recently erased specimens, the reason for which is that either they are stolen or a short-term strategy to cash in on the premiums they seem to attract (albeit very limited premiums, in the majority of cases it would have an adverse impact on the sale price to remove the naming).

I was just adding to a moot point regarding the source of these items. As I wrote, erasing would most probably have to be done elsewhere, with specialist equipment - sander on a lathe or similar, I'd expect, if an even finish was to be produced.

I am as yet uncertain as to the precise number of erased medals being sold increasingly drastically: perhaps we are just (and rightly) far more aware of it and it is a worrying trend that they seem to appear to get a good price. However, as already stated, when it becomes apparent they are saleable, they will come out of the woodwork and be put on sale.

I would be concerned if someone had tens or hundreds of such medals -I think that would rightly arouse suspicion as to their origin, especially with regard to their being the proceeds of robberies etc. - but a dozen or so such medals could easily be accounted for due to the reasons already given.

I am sure a good number went to the silver merchants in the 1970s, hence the preponderance of single Stars and Victorys, but I would hazard this was not the majority (many of which, at this time, would doubtless still have been in the possession of the recipient or their children). I would think most collectors would have been loathe to have them smelted out of pure sentiment.

The key thing is to educate people out of buying these items; then there would be no appeal in paying for them and there would be no incentive to produce them deliberately or erase them because of their illicit status.

As Toyah said, "It's a mithtery, it's a mithtery..."

Cheers

Richard

[CROONAERT]

1/ It`s not easy to "expertly" erase a medal. Give someone a file and a bit of softish metal and they soon find that filing isn`t as easy as it looks.....

4/ I can`t think of any instance in which erasing a medal would increase its value - unless it was "hot".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agree with this first point. You want to see the mess I once made of someone's C.S.M. with NI clasp when I was trying to "expertly" erase it to get it re-stamped with my own details (my own C.S.M. dissappeared into the world of the dealers many moons ago - I hold no hope of ever recovering it!!!).

On the 4th point, it's unfortunate, but at places such as speedbid or ebay you are likely to get at least 5 or 6 pounds more for an erased medal than you would for a non-casualty ASc medal (for example). It's a case of supply and demand. People actually want erased medals to fill those gaps in their groups (whether they're family groups or not). "Orphan" medals can feel like a "cuckoo" in a group to some people, and a replica is not good enough. These people want "blanks" and, in their absence, "erased" medals will do. The ethics of it all doesn't mean anything to them as they are generally not really collectors anyway.

Dave.

[PhilB]

Dave, I wonder if there are people who think that "erased" or "expertly erased" means officially erased? It`s the only way I can see folk thinking that erasure increases the medal value. But I take your point! Phil B