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Remembered Today:

Old Fort at Seddülbahir


The Plummed Goose

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Quote from Eric: Is there anyone who could tell me where I can find a picture of the "Old fort" at Seddülbahir ?? Most pictures include the castle, but -I think- I have never seen one of the fort.

I have not had my head so far above the parapet for quite some time,

so how about if I stand just a little bit higher and see what sort of incoming fire I can attract, by putting forward my theory on this, the case of the missing castle/fort or whatever? And once again, I invite counter arguments or ideas.

My suspicion is that we will not find any pictures of a fort or castle or ruin on Hill 141 to answer Eric’s question.

The maps issued at the beginning of the campaign were famously inaccurate

being based upon a French survey of 1854 no less. The 1:63,360 and the next one, the 1: 40,000 which was based upon it [‘same inaccuracies, just writ large,’ as one commentator put it] both show a ‘hospital’ near Fort No.1 and an ‘Old Castle’ on/near Hill 141

My first question is ‘How significant were the remains of the Old Castle?’

If that was its description in 1854, then what was left of it sixty years later?

I would hazard a guess and say that by 1915 they did not amount to much more than the foundations and above ground possibly only one or two low courses of masonry at most.

My reason for this is that there are no references to any significant building or ruins in the literature. Indeed the Hill was so bereft of any identifiable features [except for the concentric circles of trenches] that in the vast majority of cases it is simply referred to by its height in feet above sea-level: 141.

For example, vol I of the British O.H. has twelve references to this hill, but in only three of them is there any mention of the ‘old castle.’ Perhaps the most significant ref is that on page 229

“Captain Shaw soon found himself held up by a redoubt he rightly took for Hill 138. But seeing the crest beyond it, which was not marked on the map, he at first mistook it for Hill 141 to the north of Sedd el Bahr. This natural mistake was to cause a great deal of confusion. (3)” “Footnote 3: On several different occasions after this second redoubt had fallen it was reported to the 29th Division that Hill 141 had been captured.”

Shaw and the others, were able to make this mistake because both of the hills [in this case, Guezji Baba and Hill 141] were bald; they were both entrenched, but they were both bare of any buildings which would have allowed the observer to differentiate between the two.

In a previous post I have already quoted from Nightingale, an officer who actually took part in this attack and who makes no mention of any building on Hill 141; now let us go to ‘Defeat at Gallipoli’ by Steel and Hart. This is another excellent book and it has quotes from a further three accounts of the action: Commander Worsley Gibson RN, Captain George Stoney and Private W. Flynn. Not one of these three mentions any building on Hill 141.

Commander Gibson must have had the best view of anyone not actually in the thick of the fighting. He was in the foretop of HMS Albion which had come in close to the beach [closer than on the previous day, the 25th April] to support. In his foretop Commander Gibson was 130 feet above sea-level ie almost on the same level as Hill 141 and he was only 1150 yards away! The view was so good that Albion was able to knock out a machine gun in the Sedd el Bahr fort at 600 yards. This gun had previously been described as concealed. Gibson was as he put it ‘looking right down on it all’ and yet he makes no mention of any building on Hill 141.

Likewise Private Flynn does not mention any building or even ruin, on Hill 141. However he does mention ‘After we took the Hill we dug in a bit of a trench and laid down there.’

At least four first-hand accounts and yet no mention of any building or ruin.

We English are very free with our use of certain words. There are two antique earthworks on the Malvern Hills, both without a single stone wall or masonry rampart, and yet they are both referred to on the OS map as ‘forts.’ I think that something similar has happened in this case. Indeed I have come across one example where an officer refers to ‘Hill 141’ and then goes on to qualify that by saying ‘which the men call a fort.’

In short, my guess is that in 1915 there was not any significant building on Hill 141.

Trenches and earthworks yes, perhaps even the odd, low line of fallen stones which were all that remained of what were once walls; see the foreground of the photograph in post No.19 on page one of this thread, which was probably taken with along with other O.H. photographs dated 1922

If you have bothered to read this far then you must be an enthusiast, so now, let’s hear what you think

Regards

Michael D.R.

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I have not had my head so far above the parapet for quite some time,

so how about if I stand just a little bit higher and see what sort of incoming fire I can attract,...

Sure Michael go ahead - we'll only take pot shots in fun

Well done! Your conclusions seem very sound and well supported so I am quite happy to agree with you.

In further support to you,

according to Defeat at Gallipoli by Steel and Hart, p 116, "The final attack began at around 14.00 and developed in two separate directions... the left flank, led from the front by Doughty Wylie, moved directly to the north against the redoubt on Hill 141 and linked up with the men led by Stoney (Captain George Stoney, Military Landing Officer V-Beach). No riuns, just a redoubt.

Stoney is quoted in Steel & Hart as stating, "We did not come under any heavy fire only losing about 4 men wounded. We rushed the line of trenches and saw the Turks clearing out. Not many getting away alive. The place proved to have been held by only a very few men - certainly if there had been more we could not have got up as easily as we did. This hill gave us the command of all the surrounding country, and gave us a real footing. It also gave us a certain amount of safety on the beach." Stoney appears to have appreciated the tactical merits of Hill 141 and states it very clearly but does not mention any buildings, ruins or substantial workings other than the Turkish trenches of the redoubt on this hill.

During the final stages of the attach on Hill 141, Private W. Flynn states, "And after we took the hill we dug in a bit of a trench and laid down there...". Shortly after this Colonel Doughty-Wylie, who remained standing, was hit and killed. Again no mention of hiding behind or in ruins, walls or the like on the hill, just the trenches.

Steel and Hart further state, "Once it was clear the attack was succeeding, Tizard left the River Clyde and established his Headquarters on Hill 141." Tizard states, "On getting to my new position (on Hill 141) I found that theMunsters and Dublins were in possession of the hill... the enemy were falling back slowly toward the Krithia Road..."

However, it appears that 29th Divisional Headquarters causes the confusion in regards to hills and castles. Steel and Hart state, "At 14.32 29th Divisional Headquarters sent a signal to Wolley Dod at W Beach informing him that 'our men from V now swarming into old castle on top of Hill 141. Push forward your right to join up with with old castle and consolidate your position." The old castle was over by Guezji Baba which is the hill situated between Hill 138 to the southwest and Hill 141. The force from W Beach was being ordered to link up with the force from V Beach but not all the hills were known to all or marked on their maps and I believe this is where the confusion arose from - at Divisional Headquarters level.

So for now, I cannot contradict the contemporary accounts - Hill 141 held the trenches of theTurkish Redoubt, perhaps some battered down ruins or rubble but we find no direct evidence for a standing structure, an old castle, however battered or demolished.

Can someone check the account in Snellers' Gallipoli - VC's of the First World War to verify some of this.

As Micheal has very aptly done it appears the buildings are all from the Guezji Baba hill area.

Thoughts?

Brian

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Dear Friends,

One last one on this topic before we "dismantle" the fort-story ...

I have been out there yesterday and found the following :

fact : Erol's pension is not ON the top of hill 141, it is just OFF (North).

The top of hill 141 was a building of which the size roughly corresponds to the field of corn there now. I'd say -of the top of my head- 70 x 40 M.

At several locations -including the sunken road leading to Erol's- there are foundations. Although I am not a specialist (far from that) it is obvious that this was not a house but a sort of "fortified" building. (see 3 pictures attachedl)

It is also obvious that the building from the Rodge's book could not have been there because is was just to LARGE /LONG for that location. (on all sides of the 70 X 40 plot the slopes decend- e.g. from the "plot" to Erol's, which is only 20 metres there is a decend of at least 3 I'd say 4 even)

After I found the clear proove (which I of course keep for the finale) I took a closer look at the Rodges pictures and to me one can distinguish SB-fort (well the donjons) on the left (Of course V beach cannot be seen as it remains out of sight) and in the right corner the batteries of fort nr 1.

Unfortunately I could not go to that location to take a picture as it is in the midlle of a cornfield.

This is part one ...

eric

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Then I went over to Fort 1 to take a picture of (IWM ref No. Q13229, which appears on the dust jacket of Steve Newman’s ‘Gallipoli Then & Now’-posted by Michael) and there is is very clear that this long buiding is not ON or NEAR 141.

To me, beyond any doubt the long building are the "ruined barracks/hospital" ...

eric

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of course you'd like to see that picture, no ...

still learning ...

eric

post-7070-1118298210.jpg

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Many thanks to Brian and to Eric for your comments and in-put here

I think that Eric’s last picture above is very useful

because if you look up to the horizon in the top right-hand corner, then you can just make out a white house behind which stands a water-tower. To the left of the water-tower [and still behind the roof-line of the white house] you can also just distinguish the two cypress trees at the head of Doughty-Wylie’s grave. This gives you as good an indication as any of the position of Hill 141 and the c.600 yards between it and the site of the barrack/hospital building which is indicated by Eric’s red circle.

Regards

Michael D.R.

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  • 1 year later...

Just got this pic from a friend of mine in Istanbul and remembered one of my first discussions on the forum ...

A rather interesting pic of the barracks/hospital

eric

post-7070-1156333170.jpg

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jonathan ... this is the hotel ... I know needs some repairs ... but no need for airco !!! :lol:

eric

tuna : you'll have to do a bit of reading, I mean the previous posts ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Eric,

Glad to hear things are going well for you. That was a bit of a shock to read that the old barracks/hospital of 1915! Good for you! How are the rennovations coming along?

Could you Eric please repost or PM me the “more or less accurate ‘today’ map from your post of Jun 6 2005, 08:57 a.m.

Thanks

Brian

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  • 2 weeks later...

Suddenly this topic has come alive again, not to say complicated

but hopefully it can soon be sorted out

Eric's original question was

"Is there anyone who could tell me where I can find a picture of the "Old fort" at Seddülbahir ?? Most pictures include the castle, but -I think- I have never seen one of the fort."

and at an early point, reference was made to the picture on page 149 of the Rodge's "Helles Landing - Gallipoli" in the Battleground Europe series

this photograph bears the caption "Hill 141 and the old castle/barracks where Lt Col Doughty-Wylie fell"

Confusion has also arisen by some references to the Turkish redoubt on Hill 141 as a 'fort'

It is generally agreed that Doughty-Wylie is buried where he fell on Hill 141 which was subsequently called by the allies Doughty-Wylie Hill or Fort Doughty-Wylie.

Looking at another thread

it now seems that the building shown in the 'Helles Landing' picture

* is not on Hill 141,

* and neither is it the Hospital or Barracks near Fort No.1

* but it is in fact a building within the castle at Sedd-el-Bahr

Comments please

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I think you are correct Michael, this is the building within the Old Fort. Thus far I cannot remember seeing any contemporary photos of Hill 141, although there must be one out there somewhere. I'll have a look through some of my pics later in the week

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I have to confess I had kept on thinking that it might be a building within the fort but I keep strugglin gto place it within the confines of the fort. The large area which one might consider to be a parade ground and enclosed by the walls with magazines/barracks to the left as you used to walk down. The photographs do not appear to show a construction which is bounded by walls which leaves me struggling as to where it might be.

I keep finding myself thinking "could it be anywhere else in the general area?" and "is it definitely pictured in 1915?" More radically, might it be somewhere else around the period at the end of the war or even somewhere associated with the Chanak crisis of 1922. Might it be some form of building at KilidBahr around the fort there. I guess Kitchener's presence rules out most "non-1915" options, so back to the drawing board with that one.

By November 1915 I do not think anything so well preserved would have survived within the fort, but I could be wrong - the walls would have given some protection from distant shellfire, but the old fort was defintely a base for the french and therefore regularly taargetted by Asiatic Annie. I have a vague recollection that parts of the large open area may have had some indication of brick wall foundations/lines at ground level. I can't either think of any accounts which refer to the interior of the castle. If only we could ask the late Joe Murray whose recollections were so detailed and accurate. I would feel a lot happier if the building were not so tall.

As with so many others this one keeps bugging me. There are similarities between some of the structure and parts of the fort around the entrance on the road down to the camber, but we are looking and a large and remarkably flat area and the only such area I can think of is within the fort.

Plenty of clues, but nothing definite yet.....but it's the centre of the old catle we keep returning to....

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Martin,

Having pointed me in the right direction, let me see if I can return the favour and help by the following

[Reference here is made to photographs which appear in two different threads. I found that I had to open 4 or 5 windows to compare them all, however at present I can see no way around this problem and I ask for your patience]

Steve's photograph in post # 43 is our base line; we know for certain that it is in the castle at Sedd-el-Bahr

Now compare it to his picture in post # 42 just above it

Starting from Right to Left

* There is the break in the wall; the cone of rubble has gone in today's picture, but break's stepped appearance can still be seen

* There is a flight of stairs with a doorway underneath

* There is an arch outlined in the wall with a doorway at its bottom left

* The wall turns left at about 45 degrees; with a doorway

Four very clear points, identifiable in both pictures, which I think confirms Steve's assertion that in these two pictures we are looking at the same site inside the castle

One further point re # 42: There is a hole in the wall beneath the second arch in the battlements; I will come back to this presently

Now look at Brian's original picture of 'K' which started off this quest, and compare it to those in posts # 42 & 44

Again working from Right to Left

* The same hole appears high up in the wall [see above] and is now to be seen above the head of the officer on the extreme right

* In the main two storey building there is damage between the arches of the two lower right windows

* There is damage to the doorway arch on both sides [at 2 o'clock and at 10 o'clock]

* More damage to the rectangular feature above the door arch

* A hole above the top right corner of this rectangular feature [while this cannot be seen in Brian's picture, however, as with other points of similarity, it is clearly seen in the picture in Steve's post # 44]

* Moving across to the two bottom left windows, there is a hole at 2 o'clock on the arch of the left one

* looking at the upper windows on this side, the right one is damaged in the same way, and there is a hole beneath the bottom right hand corner of the left window. This latter can be seen in all the photographs

* Looking at the foot of the building's, behind the head of the British officer on 'K's right, then we see the same hole and damage as appears behind the soldier in Steve's # 44. [This is also discernable in # 42, but less clearly]

* On the left edge of the building, and just above the architrave, there is a nick which can be seen in the 'K' photograph and in # 44. These two pictures also show an exactly similar drain pipe at this point.

* Finally, many of the above 'recognition points' can also be seen in Tuna's picture [his post # 34]

Brian's picture of 'K' was taken inside the castle at Sedd-el-Bahr, in front of the same buildings which are also to be seen in pictures # 34, 42 and 44

I think that these buildings also match-up with those shown on page 149 of 'Helles Landing'

This latter picture is not of the same quality, nevertheless by examining the damage [listed above] to the windows, the doorway and the feature above the doorway, I am of the opinion that they are the same.

Indeed with the benefit of now knowing that it is located, neither on Hill 141 nor at Fort No.1, but rather that is situated within the walls of Sedd-el-Bahr castle, then one can make out the crenelated form of the top of the castle's walls on the picture's sky-line. How on earth did we not see them before?

One final point and this time a return to speculation. If you look at the January 1916 aerial shot in my post # 19

[it is best viewed upside-down (rotate it through 180 degrees) to get the benefit of the shadows which give a more three-dimensional effect]

then I believe that the buildings which we are examining here are the three rectangles just inside the NW wall [north being the round tower also referred to above]

I am now off to rest my weary eyes

regards

Michael

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Just a quick reply for now.

Brilliant work Michael!

Your detailed analysis of the photos is bang on. Holmes & Watson would be most impressed.

And look - in simplified form, the map confirming that there is a large structure inside the castle (rectangular building shaded with diagonal hachure marks, a building beacuse it is shaded just as are other buildings in the village).

I will try to put together a composite photo.

Cheers,

Brian

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Thanks for your comments Brian and for the offer of help with a composite photograph

If it's possible then I am sure that the Pals would appreciate it

[Apropos the map - it always amuses me when I see it

It is the only example I have ever come across of the word 'cliffy']

regards

Michael

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Pals,

Re the debate over the location of the old building in the background of the photo of Kitchener’s visit to the Peninsula. As has been confirmed, it was in the grounds of the castle.

It’s exact location was to the right of the main entrance to the castle, against the wall that over looks V Beach as shown on Brian's map (though interestingly,there was another building in the centre of the castle not shown). I confirmed that the building was the right one with Sahin Aldogan, one of Turkey’s leading experts on the campaign and probably the best man regarding terrain. He also informed me that a recent archaeological dig within the grounds of the castle, a part of preliminary work to restore the fortification, has uncovered the foundations of the building in question.

It appears that the building survived the war but was later demolished. Some of the stone was used to rebuild houses in the village. Until some years ago, the castle remained an active Turkish military facility. The site where the building was located was used as a football and volleyball pitch for the garrison.

In March this year, the Turkish authorities put in place a diorama depicting the landing at V Beach on 25 April. The diorama included a fairly accurate depiction of the castle, including our burnt out building.

I was at Helles on Friday and looked at the diorama with new eyes, in light of the present thread. I’ll post a photo when I download the shots off my camera.

I reckon we can put this one to bed.

Cheers

Bill

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not having one of my best days... weeks... months...

Got myself into a muddle about which thread I was in regarding ruined buildings at Seddulbair. The photos of the diorama showing the castle are now in the right spot (he says hopefully).

However, I do have another shot, similar to previously posted ones showing the ruined barracks and have attached it. This one appears on a display above the battery at V Beach, showing the then and now aftger restoration work was carried out.

Bill

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  • 6 months later...

I think this one will run and run!

I've still been thinking this through and picking up oddments as I go.

Prior to the war (circa 1908/9) there were several buildings in the area inside the fort and between it and the village.

Entering from the entrance opposite the villagenot the one on the road down to the camber (which followed a slightly different route from the lower entrance to run down to the far side of the little harbour whereas it now runs to the side nearest the fort) you would have seen buildings as follows.

The square block immediatley to your left as you enter was one of three magazines for Mixed Ammunition, torpedo stores etc. The other two were the towers at the north and west corners of the fort.

To your right tucked against the NW wall of the fort was a smallish block which served as the officers barracks.

In the middle of what is now the square ope area was also small magazine (store?) for unfilled shells etc. - presumably with no risk of explosion.

Towards the south east side (where I seem to recall there is now a sort of concrete platform) there was a powder magazine.

The SE & SW sides were marked by the six 28cm Krupp guns and their associated magazines each storing some 60 shells. For some reason there seem to have been seven magazines!

Looking at the North West Wall, where the "mystery building" we have discussed was located we see from left to right:

Corner tower (one of the three mixed magazines)

Beneath the tower a "small grey shed" - whatever that may have been!

Tucked against the wall was a store for field guns

In the centre was the Barracks block - the subject of this long debate. Behind it and betweenit and the wall were two smaller buildings, described as departmental stores. Behind these the wall was punctuated by two smaller towers and between these was a fairly small "entrance" (are there any remaining signs of this today, I wonder).

Corner tower (one of the three mixed magazines)

This latter corner tower is the northernmost corner of the fort. External to the fort and no more than 20 yards from the tower was the SW end of a block almost as large (in footprint) as the main barracks block inside the fort. This external building was described as a hospital.

It seems clear that there was an internal barracks block for rankers (and a separate one for officers) and a hospital building outside the fort.

To what extent these buildings survived the 1912 conflict and were still in place in 1914/1915 I cannot say, but at least this throws rather more light on the debate.

Perhaps Bill can advise whether the archaelogical work in the confines of the fort has identified any of the other buildings I describe.

Martin

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The Plummed Goose said:
Dear Steve,

Just came across a picture of the "barracks" / Hill 141 so no need for you to "dig" into your library.

eric

PS : Battleground Europe, Helles Landing, Huw & Jill Rodge, p. 149

Eric,

This photo appeared in the Illustrated War News 29th December 1915. The caption to the photo read as follows-

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Lord Kitchener at Sedd-el-Bahr with French Commader-in-Chief.

Left to right Colonel Watson, Kitchener, French Commander-in-Chief, Colonel Sir Henry McMahon behind left Colonel Fitzgerald Kitchener's military secretary.

The building in the background appears to be the same to that in the photo in the publication "Helles Landing - Gallipoli" by Huw & Jill Rodge, page 149, and also in post 9 page 1 and post 41 this page.

Sullivan.

PS. Eric, also another thread on this subject, see

 

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Hi Michael,

as of the last time I saw the castle, no work had been carried out for well over a year, certain disputes between Turkish authorities and the private corporation sponsoring the dig and restoration work as I understand it. Unfortunately, the whole site is fenced off (though a bit of effort can get you inside)

However, preliminary work did uncover the foundations of a small to medium sized building in the interior courtyard, to the right side of about 30 metres or so from the main gate. Again, unfortunately, as the site is officially closed off, one isn't supposed to go in and have a look.

Cheers

Bill

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