Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe

[frans]

"Waarom worden rond Ieper nieuwe industrieterreinen gepland, terwijl zo ook bezig zijn om de slagvelden ter plekke vóór de herdenkingen in 2014 tot Werelderfgoed te verklaren?"

-NRC Handelsblad(NL) 7 Juni 2008.

NRC asks this question about the Salient becoming a World Heritage site in 2014, but does not find an answer.

If the area was to be declared a World Heritage site, what would the consequences be for land development, and for battlefield excavation?

Surely at this point a coherent set of rules must be put into place and applied equally.

"Waarom worden rond Ieper nieuwe industrieterreinen gepland"

The above question, why are there new industrial estates planned around Ieper.

The answer is simple, there is a great need for industrial estates. Problem, where do we plan them without upsetting anybody. It must be a planners nightmare here at the Town Hall, you never know who wil be breathing steam around your neck.

Regarding the world heritage site I don't really know what the conditions would be.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

.

The way forward is for De Diggers to support the archaeologists in seeking adequate resouorces.

Is that acceptable for De Diggers Frans ?

[frans]

Is that acceptable for De Diggers Frans ?

I think the first thing is to have some sensable rules.

Secondly is to understand the situation here in Belgium which is totally different than in the UK.

Lastly we don't have any problem to work with anyone.

The funding for archeology should be found with the responsable minister.

Our funding has never been a problem because we clean up a stretch of land so the builders are more than pleased to cover any costs. I think it is wrong to keep on pulling the group into the archeology sector.

[willy]

to me battlefield clearance has nothing to do with archaeology, as frans rightly says, it is different in belgium, in belgium they don't evacuate a square mile every time an uxd is found!.

hope a sensible solution is found, and de diggers can get on with what they do better than most.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Willy . do you not think that much of the work carried out by De Diggers is best done by experts not , with the greatest respect here , by the public with a pair of wellies and a spade ? The Diggers are the public with no formal training of munitions most of the time.

[willy]

Willy . do you not think that much of the work carried out by De Diggers is best done by experts not , with the greatest respect here , by the public with a pair of wellies and a spade ? The Diggers are the public with no formal training of munitions most of the time.

de diggers are in my opinion and that of others very experienced in what they do, their record speaks for itself, i suggest they are left to get on with their valuable work, because i cannot see anyone else that can or want to do it.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Roland

diggers are the public but with years of experience behind them and no losses so they must be doing things right

tafski

Good point made there . I enjoy reading about the guys but boy do they scare me.

[Guest tafski]

Scare you HOW??

have you ever been with them and watched them work ?? I have been very fortunate to have been and observed them work time after time and never have i ever been scared cautious maybe but they do know what they are doing

tafski

[willy]

Good point made there . I enjoy reading about the guys but boy do they scare me.

perhaps you would like to come over with me next time i go and hopefully see de diggers at work?

[Guest tafski]

every one to their own whats the difference of observing ??? more chance of having an incident when people get even nearer when they see stuff at the side of the road and push and prod and try to get the shiney bit off the top

Tafski

[Guest tafski]

willy see you there in March as usual

tafski

[willy]

i have a few trips planned before then.

[johnreed]

To me the Diggers are not the public but a dedicate group who have vast experience and knowledge of what type of unexploded ordnance they are likely to encounter. Some have about thirty years experience of clearing areas. I have also have been in their company on digs and have at no time seen any cavalier attitude or unsafe methods employed by them. I have only one suggestion it is that when planning permission is obtained by a developer a licence is granted to the Archelogist and De Diggers and certificate signed by both that the area has no archelogical significance and that the area is clean of any ordnance or contamination. I would also suggest that any costs involved would be borne by the developer.

John

[willy]

sense at last john.

[chaz]

can I put a comparrison here, I marshall at bike, car, onroad, offroad events.

the majority of events are marshalled by unpaid volunteers, who give up their time and stand around watching carefully for flying objects.

the worrying ones are the club stage rally or weston style beach races. spectators run onto the circuit to help out.

John seems to have to most sensible suggestion so far, you dont need to be paid to do a job as that can attract people doing it for the money against the safety, also a large organisation would then start cutting corners for big profits.

DeDiggers should be recognised for their work and be either an appointed specialist or one of a group of reccomended contractors available for new projects, available for tender when contracts are taken out.

[Marco]

Professionals should, but don't so the Diggers is the next best thing, i.m.h.o.

what do you think the de diggers do belt hell out of shells or throw grenades about ???

No, but when you are that much in the picture it doesn't look too profesional / help your case when you see Patrick hitting shells and hand grenades with a trowel to clean them on Dutch National TV News on 11-11 saying it is safe just as long as you leave the fuse alone:

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=8246468 (scene at 22 min)

Regards,

Marco

[towisuk]

If as it seems, the developers can just bulldoze the land without having a clearance, thus destroying the remains of soldiers who fought to clear the country from an attacking force, would the newspapers in the UK be interested in this story?.

At this time, when we have had excellent coverage of WW1 and people involved personal stories, it might interest the national media, and any

article could create unrest among the relatives of lost soldiers and other interested parties. This could lead to some action being taken to ensure the land is at least checked for remains before the earth movers move in

regards

Tom

[SiegeGunner]

I have to confess to be being confused. I had always understood that De Diggers was an amateur battlefield archaeology group that sometimes encountered and removed unexploded ordnance. But we now seem to be being told that it is in fact an amateur UXO clearance organisation that sometimes finds Great War artefacts and human remains. Even accepting the unique situation in the battlefield areas, where landowners, in particular farmers, clear UXO themselves, as they find it, surely the systematic clearance of UXO for third parties in return for payment (even if only of expenses) is a commercial activity, and therefore subject to regulation. Does Belgium permit people to practise amateur dentistry on others for payment, or allow unqualified people to install the electrical systems in the new developments built on the sites cleared by De Diggers? I am surprised, frankly, that the developers and/or occupiers are able to obtain insurance on these new premises, based on an assurance that the site has been cleared by amateur volunteers.

[bierlijn]

Vzw De Diggers krijgt opschorting van straf

Archeologisch materiaal

Bijkomend probleem is dat de rechter oorlogsmunitie als archeologisch materiaal beschouwd, waardoor alleen archeologen de spullen mogen opgraven. De Diggers bestaan echter enkel uit vrijwilligers.

Archeological material.

Extra problem is that the judge regards that war munitions is classed as archeological material. Therefore only archeologist can dig up munitions. De digger members are all volunteers.

This part of De Diggers judgement has clouded what up until now seemed a straightforward situation. And what the attending archeologist is going to gain from being there (apart from a nervous twitch) is hard to see.

[truthergw]

This is a very tricky problem. Like most of the forum, I used to look forward to the latest exploits of Frans and his group. Great pics of what happened as it happened. I was concerned when this problem arose about a year ago. I can understand the Belgian authorities being wary of a group of amateurs doing ground clearance. I know that Frans and group are not beginners, they have much valuable experience but they are amateurs. They do this as a hobby. They can come and go as and when they please as far as the law is concerned. There is no contract. They have no certificates or diplomas in an age when paper qualifications are all important. I think it will be very difficult to make legislation that ensures a professional level of expertise in this important and potentially deadly work while at the same time, allowing unqualified people to carry it out. As someone has pointed out, a group of amateur bomb clearers is a very scary notion indeed. We know that de Diggers are experienced but I can also see that the authorities have a legitimate fear. I hope that some arrangement can be made which will allow Frans and like minded people to participate in this work. As a final thought, what would you say if a WW2 bomb was discovered at the end of your street and a local amateur archaeologist volunteered to dig it up and make it safe, inviting or allowing onlookers to come as close as they wished and perhaps lend a hand if they were keen. Anyone care to list how many laws and regulations would be broken in that silly scenario?

[johnreed]

Please don't confuse what happens in the UK with what happens in Belgium. In UK most of ordnance unearthed is by contractors putting in roads or new builds and quite rightly the correct authorities are informed and set procedures are put in motion. In Belgium the De Diggers had a permit to dig but the department which issued the permit changed its name with the result that the permit was invalid because it did not have the correct name on it. The De Diggers were unaware of the name change hence the charge of digging without permit. As I said in my previous post the way round it was when issuing planning permission to also issue two permits one to the Local Archelogical Group and one to the De Diggers two certificates have to be signed one by Archelogical Group saying there is no archelogical significance and one signed by the De Diggers saying the the area is clear of any ordnance, before any work is carried out by the contractor. Please but please do not let this thread degenerate into name calling or anything of that description, as this thread is too informative to be closed. I only hope that the issue of permits is resolved and get back to how this thread was.

John

[truthergw]

Hi John. Are you saying then, that De Diggers are an amateur bomb disposal team which can certify that a site has been cleared? If the site is not properly cleared and an accident occurs, what will be the legal position? Will the developer be able to pursue De Diggers in the courts?

[frans]

Hi John. Are you saying then, that De Diggers are an amateur bomb disposal team which can certify that a site has been cleared? If the site is not properly cleared and an accident occurs, what will be the legal position? Will the developer be able to pursue De Diggers in the courts?

Sorry to but in.

We are not a bomb disposal team. We detect dig around the ammunition, and if safe to do so, remove to the side of the pit.

With gas ammunition we can call for direct assistance and the DOVO will come directly and take over.

The DOVO the army unit which collects and destroys the ammunition take over. There is still more than enough to keep the DOVO busy just collecting and destroying the ammunition. Besides this there are massive stocks of second world war ammunition which need to be destroyed as well, so plenty of work for the coming years.

I fully agree with you regarding the legal position of the landowner who he has to sue when his building goes up in the air.

As we are the only group that will go to any building site regardless if anything is there or not. That is the best the Ieper area had to offer. The situation is now you can apply for a permit, if it is turned down it will mean it will be just devellopped. That is an unacceptable situation.

The judgement made the situation very clear and we are hoping that a good workable solution is going to come out of this,

what the part our group can play in this, time will tell

[alliekiwi]

Regarding qualifications... surely the years of experience should be taken into account as well? People are given degrees, or allowed to go through to doing Masters or PhDs without having obtained the usual undergraduate qualification. Or are given higher positions in the workplace due to their competence which outweighs their paper qualfications.

Can the diggers (or specific members of their group) not be given a 'promotion on the field' as it were?

Allie

[roel22]

No, but when you are that much in the picture it doesn't look too profesional / help your case when you see Patrick hitting shells and hand grenades with a trowel to clean them on Dutch National TV News on 11-11 saying it is safe just as long as you leave the fuse alone:

It may not look too professional, but it's exactly what (the professional) members of DOVO did when I did a story on them years ago.

After I crawled back from under my car, they also told me it was not dangerous, as long as they would not hit the fuse.

If we want sites to be cleared the Diggers are pretty much the only solution (and a fine one to me). DOVO doesn't actively search/dig for WW1-ammo. They have many, many decades of work ahead simply collecting the ammo found during farming and construction.

Roel