Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe

[tammilnad]

Other remark: I am not sure if it was really the group which is actually known as "The Diggers" who did the excavation? I see for example Johan Vandewalle on a photo and probably Franky Bostyn had been involved too. All people who are belonging to different archeological groups at the moment.

Erwin

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I can asure you that it was the Diggers. Johan van de Walle left the group in 1998. Mr. F. Bostyn has never been a member of the Diggers, and was not involved in this excavation.

The Diggers started in the early eighties and Patrick van Wanzeele was the founding father of the group. Today Patrick is still the leader of the Diggers and has been the one who has always held the licences which has enabled the group to excavate. Patrick who prefers to stick his head into the ground has never openly looked for publicity, his interest is excavation. From monday to friday his main job is looking for articles from the middle ages in the whole province of west-vlanders. On the saturday he spends his time excavating the first world war.

As with any group, members come and go. Many of the early members have left because of old age or because of work commitments elswhere. Today the Diggers are at full strength with ten members.

Regards, Frans

[Aurel Sercu]

This would mean that the bunker was captured before the start of Third Ypres? The jumping-off line for the 31st of July was more or less Railway Wood.

Erwin

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Erwin,

This would mean that the dugout was captured before the start of 3rd Ypres indeed, IF I am not wrong (in saying that the excavation was done between Hellfire Corner and Railway wood).

But fortunately I had said : I could be wrong ...

Indeed, as you say, the jumping off line on 31 July was at Railway Wood, with 23rd Brigade (2nd Devonshire) right of the railway, and 44th Brigade (8/10 Gordon Highl. and 9th Black Watch) on the left.

So if the place was not captured on 31st July 1917, but had been captured before Third Ypres, then it must have been between Railway Wood and the A19 motorway.

Sorry if I was wrong or not very accurate, but as I said I don't have exact data.

I was told that the place where the dugout was, is still 'visible', or even 'feelable' when you cross it by car. Whether this is true, no idea...

Aurel

[frans]

Here is something totally differrent. It was returned by the IFF today where is has been on display in a special exposition. The french shell was dug up by the Diggers in 1989 out of an English trench near lancashire farm. Before you start posting the cross is Anno 2005.

Trench Art was mostly made after the war, this peace is from within the Great war.

[spike10764]

Frans, thanks for posting the picture-

Did the original have anything to suggest it contained a cross in it ?

It looks so in place there (if a little shiny and new). I just wonder why the cross was added for the special exposition.( Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post)

[frans]

Frans, thanks for posting the picture-

Did the original have anything to suggest it contained a cross in it ?

No it did not. They think it was most likely a figure. But when taking a photo it did not look wright, and the cross was the only item I had that fitted.

The item is made out of a french shell. These shells were notorious for not exploding but splitting at the side. One of the manufacturers of these shells was Peugeot. So a bit of advice to any Peugeot drivers is - keep a good look at the side of your engine!

Frans

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Erwin,

This would mean that the dugout was captured before the start of 3rd Ypres indeed, IF I am not wrong (in saying that the excavation was done between Hellfire Corner and Railway wood).

But fortunately I had said : I could be wrong ... 

Indeed, as you say, the jumping off line on 31 July was at Railway Wood, with 23rd Brigade (2nd Devonshire) right of the railway, and 44th Brigade (8/10 Gordon Highl. and 9th Black Watch) on the left.

So if the place was not captured on 31st July 1917, but had been captured before Third Ypres, then it must have been between Railway Wood and the A19 motorway.

Sorry if I was wrong or not very accurate, but as I said I don't have exact data.

I was told that the place where the dugout was, is still 'visible', or even 'feelable' when you cross it by car. Whether this is true, no idea...

Aurel

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Aurel

Seeing the photo's I had the impression that the excavated place was between the bridge over the A19 and and Zonnebeke village. I checked this with other people and this was confirmed. Which makes it almost impossible that the bunker was captured on the date and by the unit mentionned (under the wrong name of Ulster Rifles) by tamilnadd.

A possiblity is that it was captured by the Dublin Fusiliers during the Battle of Langemarck (16th of August), but because of the disastrous result of this attack it is not very likely neither. For what it's worth: more realistic candidates seems to be units of the 15th Scottish Div (last weeks of August) or, more likely, 9th Scottisch Div in September 17.

I remember there was also a very strong rumour then about a lot of material not handed over to museums or official bodies, but being put aside in bags in the maïsfields alongside the railroad until officials were gone. But as I say: I just heard the rumour. Whether or not this is true will be difficult to find out after all these years.

Erwin

[Aurel Sercu]

Erwin,

As to the exact location, I have no idea. Was it between the A19 crossing and Zonnebeke ? Possible, though I have always thought it was between Hellfire Corner and the A19. But again, I never was there, and it was years before my time.

But I'm sure Franky Bostyn or Johan Vandewalle can tell you.

Aurel

[spike10764]

No it did not. They think it was most likely a figure. But when taking a photo it did not look wright, and the cross was the only item I had that fitted.

The item is made out of a french shell. These shells were notorious for not exploding but splitting at the side. One of the manufacturers of these shells was Peugeot. So a bit of advice to any Peugeot drivers is - keep a good look at the side of your engine!

Frans

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, I understand now Frans. Might it have been used as something as simple as a candle holder? To protect it from the wind, or the elements.

[frans]

Aurel

Seeing the photo's I had the impression that the excavated place was between the bridge over the A19 and and Zonnebeke village. I checked this with other people and   this was confirmed. Which makes it almost impossible that the bunker was captured on the date and by the unit mentionned (under the wrong name of Ulster Rifles) by tamilnadd.

A possiblity is that it was captured by the Dublin Fusiliers during the Battle of Langemarck (16th of August), but because of the disastrous result of this attack it is not very likely neither. For what it's worth: more realistic candidates seems to be  units of the 15th Scottish Div (last weeks of August) or, more likely, 9th Scottisch Div in September 17.

I remember there was also a very strong rumour then about a lot of material not handed over to museums or official bodies, but being put aside in bags in the maïsfields alongside the railroad until officials were gone. But as I say: I just heard the rumour. Whether or not this is true will be difficult to find out after all these years.

Erwin

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The place of the german dugout is very clear. The first photo of the posting, you are just about on top of it. So you can safely say your conclusion is correct.

The information regarding the Ulster Royal Rifles was forwarded by the german authorities with the information regarding the identification of the soldier who was identified. I suggest you get in touch with the department that deals with this kind of information in Germany and tell them that their records need correcting. No research was done by the Diggers regarding who and what regiment was there at the time.

On the last paragraph I will say the same as I did a few postings before, that stories of hearsay we don't deal with. If anybody thinks he has a complaint or a strong rumour, I would suggest you address this to the Documentation Center of the Gemeente Ieper.

A little treasure of this afternoons digging.

[frans]

Ah, I understand now Frans. Might it have been used as something as simple as a candle holder? To protect it from the wind, or  the elements.

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Spike you could be spot on.

[frans]

Yesterday this 75mm french artillery shell was discovered. Looks like a good find.

[frans]

When removed from the ground to our surprise the shell had a wooden plug which sealed the top of the shell. The top edge had been carefully fixed over the wooden plug and two holes had been made in the side of the shell. Obviously a booby trap.

[frans]

Vieuw from the top and you can see the shell is still filled with black powder. The detonating device was still inside the shell.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

I suggest you get in touch with the department that deals with this kind of information in Germany and tell them that their records need correcting. No research was done by the Diggers regarding who and what regiment was there at the time.(unquote)

Isn't that a bit strange? I thought an archeological survey is just a part of a total historical approach, which tries to reconstruct the story as complete as possible. I for myself would not be satisfied with the answer of a German department (which one?) concerning a British unit. Especially because the correct information isn't that hard to find.

Are you trying to tell us that this digging is just done for the sake of itself? If not, I would expect a more fundamental research about the backgrounds of what is discovered.

I have the utmost respect for the people who are spending their free time on these excavations if it is aimed at bringing a better understandiness of history. If not, it is unscientifical and should be avoided.

Erwin

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Vieuw from the top and you can see the shell is still filled with black powder. The detonating device was still inside the shell.

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It looks like a crude land mine considering the wooden plug, detonator and powder. It was most likely set off by the pressure of someone walking on it after it was buried in the ground.

In comparison to a similar item the anti-tank devices I have seen were normally artillery shells that were designed to be detonated by the weight of the tank and tread and the resulting explosion would destroy or disable the tank.

Ralph

[bkristof]

according to a DOVO specialist, it isn't a mine or a booby trap.

It was common those days to improvise "grenades" like this one. He said that he found more like these, but with British ammo.

[frans]

Isn't that a bit strange? I thought an archeological survey is just a part of a total historical approach, which tries to reconstruct the story as complete as possible. I for myself would not be satisfied with the answer of a German department (which one?) concerning a British unit. Especially because the correct information isn't that hard to find.

Are you trying to tell us that this digging is just done for the sake of itself? If not, I would expect a more fundamental research about the backgrounds of what is discovered.

Erwin

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Who said anything about an archeological survey. The diggers were given a licence to dig here and document this part of the railway line. While the demolition and removel crews were working this excavation was done. During this excavation a large amount of explosives were removed out of the ground making it a safer place for all. If any historians need the documentation or photo's for their research they can be made available via the documentation center of Ieper.

The information returned by the germans regarding the soldier and capture of the bunkers was filed with all the other documents.

Licences are only given when a specific area is going to be develloped. A good example is where the diggers are working now, another three months and this site will be gone forever and concreted over.

I understand that you want it done in an academic way, then we should make sure that these groups have academic budgets, which I am sorry to say no government at the moment is willing to give. So we are left with amateur groups of which there are more in the Ieper area to document anything that disappears.

Regards Frans

[frans]

according to a DOVO specialist, it isn't a mine or a booby trap.

It was common those days to improvise "grenades" like this one. He said that he found more like these, but with British ammo.

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You need to be a pritty good cricketer to lob this one five yards. It must weigh a good few kilo's.

[bkristof]

it can be launched by a tool, not by hand...

[frans]

it can be launched by a tool, not by hand...

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Why go to the trouble of drilling two holes in the side of the shell and then launch it with what, a catapult. It would most likely fall apart. The shell would look quiet innocent and therefore would make a good booby trap. My feeling is that in the area which we have explored maybe 50 x 50 meters, there was no need for improvised material as we have exposed morters and many mills handgrenades.

The distance between the lines was here maybe 40-50 meters and the trench was no more than three feet deep, I should think you would want to keep your head down.

Below another Toffee Apple in pritty good shape, only inches below the surface.

[frans]

On the photo what is left of an armourplate. In the area which is being explored nearly all the finds up to now are at a depth of no more than 3 feet deep.

[Simon R]

Could someone perhaps explain the excavation strategy for this site? It seems that 1m square test pits are being dug - but presumably the precise area has already been targeted by geophysical techniques.

Otherwise you're a very, very lucky set of Diggers! You always seem to have a toffee apple/armour plate at the bottom of your trench!

I take it that these finds aren't associated with any features - you're not excavating out some form of WWI period 'pit' and lo and behold finding an object at the bottom of it? Everyone seems to be standing in a hole with an explosive device!

Well it terrifies me! I really wouldn't like to be the one prising open the top of a booby trap.

So, if we're digging test pits in our 50/50m stripped area, what about the wider interpretation and understanding of the site? How does what you're finding relate to the deposits within which they are found and the landscape around it?

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi Simon,

I take the freedom of answering here, although I have no bounds with the diggers. The site where they work is to be redeveloped for industry, so everything is bound to disappear in very short notice. If I'm correct proffessional Flemish archaeologist of the Flemish community archaeological Service have allready evaluated the site. Starting from aereal pics, trench maps and surface survey a series of large test trenches were dug (see the A.W.A. website http://www.a-w-a.be/, click on 'Boezinge project', for more info on this) Some of these trenches were broadened if there were more interesting features nearby. After they finished their evaluation of the site (it is a very large patch of land, I would say more than 10 soccer fields), the diggers are now surveying the rest of the site, as the proffessionals have no more time and money to pay any attention to it. I think the diggers mainly use metal detectors. If they get a strong signal, they dig a test pit, and what is shown on Frans' photographs is the result of this. Many years of practice payed off, and they are pretty good at detecting metal features underground.

I admit that there is no overall strategy and that this way of working might not seem very professional. Given the surcomstances however (all this is bound to disappear and will get no proffessional attention) it is either this, or either undocumented distruction.

The state of our archaeological system is VERY bad indeed. We 'row with the peddles we have'.

regards,

Bert

[Martin Brown]

Simon makes a very valid point in asking about the excavation strategy and the method employed for placing this site into its wider context in both the battlespaceand the landcape. Without some sense of interpretation anyone's excavations become an exercise in digging holes rather than systematic investigation of the physical remains of past human activity.

Bert is of course correct to point out that the site is under threat from development but if this is the case then some mechanism for an integrated archaeological approach driven by serious research questions should be formulated, which the archaeological curators should be devising, and some method of paying for the work and for its attendant support (post-excavation study, conservation, publication) needs to be worked out; for this one must look to the Belgian Government. In UK we have a principle whereby developers pay for the cost of archaeological works it is not perfect but it does mean that one small group is not left to excavate a large and significant site unaided and unsupported.

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi Martin,

The Flemish goverment is researching a way to introduce such a system (developer-funded archaeology, conform to the agreements of La valetta (Malta)), after a group of Flemish archaeologists rang the alarm, only about a month or two ago. (see their website http://www.vlaamsearcheologie.be/ only in dutch, sorry for that). However, such a system can not operate without a central archaeological inventroy, comparable to your sites and monuments records. A large team started work on this a few years ago, but the project is starting to run very slow due to not enough funding and the fact that several people have been fired because their supervisors committed massive fraude (among them the archaeologist responsible for the inventory of WW1 traces, you know who I'm talking about!!).

So there is some light at the end of the tunnel... but for the moment it's still pitch dark!!!

regards,

Bert