SDGW & CWGC

[Doug Lewis]

Could anyone explain the differing information on a local man I'm researching (Leonard Sylvanus Cutler)

On SDGW it has him serving with the RHA & RFA Territorial Force, with his service no being 810187 & KIA 23/4/17.

BUT

On GWGC it has him as serving with the RFA 232 Bde with his service no being 1560 & KIA 25/4/17.

Which KIA date is likely to be correct and would he have changed his service no when he moved from RHA to RFA? Or am I just missing something due to my limited knowledge

Thanks Doug

[Chris_Baker]

My guess is this.

He was a gunner in the TF RFA. He initially had the short number 1560, and along with all other TF soldiers was renumbered with the six digit 810187 in 1917.

The field artillery is often referred to as RH & RFA. It does not imply that he had been in the RHA.

232 Brigade (CCCXXII) was, as I'm sure you know, one of the artillery units of 46th (North Midland) Division TF until it became an Army Brigade in January 1917.

As far as the date goes, I would trust CWGC every time. SDGW is sometimes rather spotty on the details.

[Doug Lewis]

Chris

Thanks for the information and your speedy response.

Doug

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

One advantage of SDGW over the CWGC is that you can find out whether a casualty was KiA, DOW or just died on SDGW.

Ian

[paul guthrie]

The ones listed as died are frustrating. That's how they list Lewis Charlesworth about whom I started a recent thread. We know 22d Manchesters were in Battle of Broodenseide Ridge which started 4 October 17 and he died 8 October and is buried at Tyne Cot, very close. The odds are overwhelming that he died as a result of that action. I know the difference in KIA and DOW and there must be a million reasons for just plain died, with this many men some had heart attacks, were murdered, committed suicide etc. but it is frustrating. Beats the hell out of dying in the mud though, God bless Lewis.

A friend is trying to find what memorial or book he is on or in.

With this man SDGW says KIA and CWGC says died. How does this happen?

[AndrewThornton]

Doug

Have you tried looking in local newspapers?

As 232nd Field Brigade's pre-war patch (when it was titled 3rd North Midland Brigade RFA) was in Staffordshire, Cutler may have an obituary in a local newspaper that may provide you with some answers - or more questions!

3rd North Midland Field Brigade, Royal Field Artillery had their drill halls at the following locations in 1914

HQ West Park, Wolverhampton

4th Staffs Bty West Park, Wolverhampton

5th Staffs Bty Drill Hall, West Bromwich

6th Staffs Bty Bailey Street, Stafford

Ammo Column West Park, Wolverhampton

Therefore, the depending on where your man came from, the relevant local archive would hold copies of the newspapers published in the area that may provide you with additional information.

I have had a look at the CWGC website and it lists Cutler as being a member of the Royal Horse Artillery, but this is an error on the database. Both of his regimental numbers are likely to be correct, as he died around the time when the Territorial Force received six digit service numbers, whereas the four digit one would have been the one allocated to him on his enlistment.

[Jock Bruce]

Paul,

I think I'm right in saying CWGC records list everybody as 'died' - possibly as an 'equality' thing. SDitGW differentiates between KIA, DOW, Died and a few other categories.

Jock

[CROONAERT]

One advantage of SDGW over the CWGC is that you can find out whether a casualty was KiA, DOW or just died on SDGW.

Ian

Am I correct in thinking that the CWGC site used to list cause of death (ie KIA, DOW, etc.), but changed this policy? Or is it just the fuzzy memory that I possess?

Dave.

[Terry Denham]

The CWGC site has never carried the cause of death information although this is still held on their central database (none exists for WW2 and only a percentage for WW1).

There was a period of a few days early last year when the current design of their web site first went online that this info did appear. But it was an error!! It was not intended to show this detail.

The details are incomplete and of doubtful veracity in some cases having been supplied by the n-o-k. Also, I suspect, CWGC do not want a flood of calls from people correcting details and adding missing causes of death as they do not regard this as a necessary piece of information - cause of death is immaterial to them.

[paul guthrie]

Terry does that mean if you were on active duty and while home on leave you are killed by a jealous husband you are commorated? Or just that once death has been deemed service connected during the applicable time limits cause of death is no longer material?

[tubist73]

This is a very late addition to this thread but one which may be interesting to some. Last week I was sorting through the house of my late uncle and came upon what looks like an unofficial 'death penny', hand engraved to commemorate the death of Leonard Sylvanus Cutler, the subject of this thread 15 years ago. In my research this last week I have also found the same discrepancies in information mentioned above. The inscription on the penny, however, lists Cutler as being in the RFA and having died on 23 April 1917.

 

The large coin has the following inscriptions - 'In proud & affectionate remembrance: Driver L. S. Cutler, R.F.A., Killed 23rd April 1917, Age 18, Presented by the people of Bushbury'. At the sides: 'He gave his life - For his country'. On the reverse is an image of the King, George V, with the names of allied countries and associated animals around the edge: 'To commemorate the victorious peace 1919'. I have attached some images of the coin below.

 

Bushbury is located just north of Wolverhampton, my late uncle's place of birth (and death). He collected many things during his life but not military items like this. I have researched many family members from this side of my family, many of whom lived locally and around Nuneaton, but I have found no connection to Leonard Cutler. All I can imagine is that he may have been a friend of a relative, or it is just a random commemorative item that my uncle acquired for unknown reasons. I'll continue to search for any links with my family.

 

Does anyone have any more information on Leonard Cutler they could share? And has anyone seen other commemorative death pennies like this, presumably privately made and funded?

Matthew

[ss002d6252]

The effects register confirms death was 23 April 17. The war gratuity was paid for 30 months qualifying service. Indicates service started in the month from 24 November 14.

 

Craig