First Sportsman's Battalion

[Steven Broomfield]

Here you go:

[Steven Broomfield]

Mark Cable - CWGC

[markacable]

Steve, Thanks for the above.

What's the book and how can I get a copy? Seems different to the link I put on

Cheers

Mark

[Steven Broomfield]

It's the "History of the 23rd (Service) Battalion, The Royal Fusilers (1st Sportsmen's)", by Fred W Ward.

It was originally published in 1920 by Sidgwick & Jackson, and my copy cost me - ahem - £3 some years ago. I don't know if it's been republished by Naval & Military: probably worth looking at their catalogue. Other than that, it's a look at the second hand market, but I'd multiple the £3 by a factor of a few dozen.

[eltoro1960]

It's available here for the princely some of...nil (in PDF form and searchable) from the Canadian Library Archive

http://www.archive.org/details/23rdfusiliers00warduoft

John

[Black Jock]

It's available here for the princely some of...nil (in PDF form and searchable) from the Canadian Library Archive

http://www.archive.org/details/23rdfusiliers00warduoft

John

John,

I had a go on your link but got lost!! I am looking for Peter Rosie he is described only as Sportsmen's Batt., Craigmount, Monifieth. Would you have any information on him. Hope you can help.

Tom

[Steven Broomfield]

Tom, I'll have a look through the original, but as the Nominal Roll is 4,000+ names in numerical order, NOT alphabetical, it might take a while

Do you have any further information? There was also the 24th (2nd Sportsmen's), plus a Footballers' Battalion (or two) in the Middlesex Regiment. I know the latter recruited in Scotland, so that might also be an option.

[eltoro1960]

Hi there Tom, appear to have found him, he is mentioned on the Nominal Roll, just his name and number.

Rosie, P 1423

Not much I'm afraid

If you follow the link I posted on the left of the page if you click on the PDF option the book will download, (9mb) when it has downloaded take the option to save a copy.

Hope this helps.

John

[Black Jock]

Hi there Tom, appear to have found him, he is mentioned on the Nominal Roll, just his name and number.

Rosie, P 1423

Not much I'm afraid

If you follow the link I posted on the left of the page if you click on the PDF option the book will download, (9mb) when it has downloaded take the option to save a copy.

Hope this helps.

John

thanks John.

I now have a number. The Monifieth ROH is scant on information neither rank or name is mentioned so each little piece of information is most welcome.

Tom

[Steven Broomfield]

His number's 1372. 1423 is Seath, D - it's clearer on the original oddly enough.

[Black Jock]

Cheers John and Steven,

I managed to download the history, and look forward to browsing it

Tom

[paharrison]

all,

My name is Peter and My GGdad was moved to the 23rd after serving in the 12RF (disbanded) and 10th RF. He was gassed at a battle on 21 Aug 1918 and I am trying to find out more details of the battle other than the scanty info that given in the war diary (I have a copy of those page dates), Project Gutenburg (which appears to be a ripp off of Fred W Wards book) and the web.

Is there any further info some where in regards to the battle on this day and more details. I should imagine if 390 odd OR's were gassed, then the unit was pretty well destroyed and perhaps there should be some commentry some where as to what sort of gas and what happened for them to get that way etc.

My GG Dad was GS 5438 Pte Richard Stanley Harrison.

Can you shed any light or point me to a document that will help?

Many thanks,

Peter

[John Gilinsky]

Tom, I'll have a look through the original, but as the Nominal Roll is 4,000+ names in numerical order, NOT alphabetical, it might take a while

Do you have any further information? There was also the 24th (2nd Sportsmen's), plus a Footballers' Battalion (or two) in the Middlesex Regiment. I know the latter recruited in Scotland, so that might also be an option.

Steve: Can you please tell me how to find out which battalions in the BEF or British Army during ww1 were Sportsman's Battalions/Units? Websites, published articles, books, orders of battle, military orders,...?

Thanks,

John

Toronto

[Steven Broomfield]

Crikey, John....ask me one I know the answer to

As far as I know, the 23rd and 24th RF were the 1st and 2nd Sportsman's; according to Martin Middlebrook (First Day on the Somme), the 12th east Yorks (2nd Hull) were known as The Hull Sportsmen; the 17th and 23rd Middlesex were the 1st and 2nd Football. Additionally, the 15th (I think) Royal Scots had a large contingent from Heart of Midlothian FC, and one of the Northamptonshire regiment battalions (7th?) had a contingent from the local rugby club.

Forum member Andrew Riddoch (AGWR) has just published a history of the 17th Mx; there is quite a bit on the forum about Edgar Mobbs (the rugby player in the Northants); the 23rd RF obviously have a history; there is, i believe, a history recently produced on the 15th RS. Other than that, I can't help a lot.

Might be worth a separate thread somewhere - sportsmen seem to crop up a lot in threads, so there's probably quite a bit of information on the forum.

[bruce]

I have just finished reading, and enjoying, "Hard as nails", the Sportsmen's Battn of WW1, written by Michael Foley, published by Spellmount, ISBN 978-1-86227-406-8.

It is all about the 23rd and 24th Battns, from inception, through training in Hornchurch and Gidea Park, through their war service, and eventualy disbandment.

A good read.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Steve .

There is a book called Hard as Nails which is all about the 23rd Bn Royal Fusiliers (1st Sportsmen) and also an e-book on the internet which is free to download and lists all the names. Gutenberg Project is what you want.

Regards Andy

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks Steve, Andy and others. My own CEF battalion history is NOT of a CEF sportsman's battalion (as far as I know officially recognize only 1 CEF sportsman's battalion the 180th.) but it is related.

I checked wikpedia and I think I even found a couple more entries. Then again what the W.O. recognized as "sportsman's/sportsmens'" battalions OFFICIALLY and what locally were viewed as such may cause some confusion for us today. Thorough local research combined with indepth National Archives at Kew research a luxury that most GWF cannot afford would answer many if not most such questions.

John

Toronto

p.S. Any way to provide the full bibliographical details of the book on the RWF sports bttn recently published or indeed any others?

[Ravrick]

Hi, I am trying to find out any information and if possible a photo of Lt Claude Augustus Moore MC, wounded with the 23rd bn at Delville Wood on 27th July 1916, he was 43 years of age. Any snippets of info appreicated, especially if he was a sportsman!

Cheers, Rick

[balbeggie]

I have a diary written by a L/cp in the 23rd Battalion 'A' company that states:

Wednesday 26th July

In bivouac all day. More gas at night. Left at 11 pm for DEVILLE WOOD passing through

LONGUEVAL.

Thursday 27th July

At 7.10 am the artillery barrage lifted and B & D Companies went over and took the German Ist

trench. Five minutes later A & C went over passing through B & D took 2nd trench. German

continued very heavy bombardment all day and night. We took 3 Officers and 150 men prisoners.

Casualties no known but not too great.

Friday 28th July

Relieved about 10 am by the Stafford's. Marched back to BERNAFRAY WOOD and then onto trenches behind Montebuan

- he lists a lot of names of wounded a few days later but your chap is not one of them

Saturday 29th July

Still in trench, Nothing of importance.

Sunday 30th July

Found out definitely that Burmingham, Pearce, Farr, Keist, Gladwell, Saunders Chambers are

wounded. Martin and Page are suffering from shell-shock. Mr Bull wounded.

(he was batman to Mr Bull)

[Guest dct]

Hi all,

I am new to this board. I came across it while searching the internet for information about Norman A.L. Cockell. I was searching for information about him because I'm doing genealogy research for my husband's family, and recently found out that Normal A.L. Cockell is my husband's great-grandfather. "Boreenatra" (Steve?), if you are still out there, I would love to know what information you have about N.A.L. Cockell, and whether you still have the photo that was discussed in this thread a few years ago, which apparently included a picture of Norman. If anybody else has any information about or photos of Normal Alexander Lindsay Cockell, I would appreciate hearing from you as well!

Even if no other information is available, I would be curious to know where Cockell's reputation as the "best all round sportsman in the Battalion...and best shot" came from?

My contact information is:

dctudor (at) yahoo (dot) com

Thank you so much!

Best regards,

Debra

Steve P Thanks for the message. Here's a few.

Private R.B.Day - World's Champion Runner

Sergeant Major Cumming - Champion Walker of England

Private J.J.Williams - ( Julian Brandon) Well known conjurer and entertainer. Journalist and Lecturer on Psychology.

Private A.H.Toogood - Professional golfer. Champion Midlands Counties. Represented England v Scotland 1904-5-6-7.

Lance Corporal Edward Leith - Song writer and Stage Manager.

Private A.E.Dunn - Late Mayor of Exeter and ex M.P.

Private W.Albany - World famous Champion Sculler.

Lieut Norman A.L.Cockell - Had the reputation of being the best all round sportsman in the Battalion. He ws also the best shot.

Corporal Alfred Burden Wharton - Comedian. Well known London entertainer, making a speciality of curate studies.

Private Douglas Henderson - Had ridden across the Andes where previous to the war he had been travelling for six years.

Hon. Bernard Yorke (Son of Lord Hardwicke) - Well known sportsman and big game hunter

Private Jerry Delaney - Lightweight Champion Boxer of England

Private C.E.Gaskell - One of the finest all round sportsman in the North of England. Was known as the "Baby" of hut 25 "Unity Hall"

I'll see what other ones I can come up with Regards Steve.

[Michael NS]

Does anyone have any further information on Pipers with the battalion? I checked the History written by Ward and there is nothing really about pipers. In particular, I am looking for information on William Johnstone.

“Pipes of War” shows Piper W. Johnstone with the 23rd Battalion, Royal Fusiliers. The Roll of Individuals entitled to the Silver War Badge shows Spts/1280 Pte. William Johnstone with Badge number B50118, enlisted December 19, 1914 and discharged November 27, 1918 at the age 27. From Ward's book, I see that he was an original member of the battalion and joined either at The Hotel Cecil, London, or at Hornchurch, Essex.

Thank you.

Michael

[AdrianBruce]

From Ward's book, I see that he was an original member of the battalion and joined either at The Hotel Cecil, London, or at Hornchurch, Essex.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure how literally we're supposed to take Ward's statement about those early guys joining at The Hotel Cecil or Hornchurch.

I've got Richard Cadman, joining 1st Sportsman's aged 41y 8m on 14 October 1914 at Oxford, where he was a college servant. He was numbered 28 originally and is listed in Ward as one of the ones who joined at one of those 2 places. (He later went on to join the Military Provost Staff Corps - maybe looking after undergraduates was not dissimilar - and is quoted in The Times of 1961 as still working at Trinity College at 87 and viewing the idea of retirement with disgust!)

I've also seen on Paul Nixon's Army numbering blog, an Edmund Rawling Bangs, number 15 in the same battalion, who was recruited on the same day but at 32 St. Paul's Churchyard, London. Ward mentions this as where 2 people recruited at The Hotel Cecil went for their medical.

Given numbers 15 and 28 were recruited on the same day so widely apart on the map, I'd take a wild stab that recruiting was controlled from The Hotel Cecil, and presumably the numbers assigned there as well, but not everyone was actually recruited there.

(Can anyone comment on where numbers were generally assigned? At the recruiting office or back at battalion / regimental HQ?)

[Piorun]

dct: you may want to remove your e-mail address from your post. This is an open forum that can be trawled by nasty types. Cheers, Antony

[Gibbo]

Crikey, John....ask me one I know the answer to <img src="http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

As far as I know, the 23rd and 24th RF were the 1st and 2nd Sportsman's; according to Martin Middlebrook (<i>First Day on the Somme</i>), the 12th east Yorks (2nd Hull) were known as <i>The Hull Sportsmen</i>; the 17th and 23rd Middlesex were the 1st and 2nd Football. Additionally, the 15th (I think) Royal Scots had a large contingent from Heart of Midlothian FC, and one of the Northamptonshire regiment battalions (7th?) had a contingent from the local rugby club.

Forum member Andrew Riddoch (AGWR) has just published a history of the 17th Mx; there is quite a bit on the forum about Edgar Mobbs (the rugby player in the Northants); the 23rd RF obviously have a history; there is, i believe, a history recently produced on the 15th RS. Other than that, I can't help a lot.

Might be worth a separate thread somewhere - sportsmen seem to crop up a lot in threads, so there's probably quite a bit of information on the forum.

The unit containing a large number of Hearts players, and footballers from other clubs, was the 16th Royal Scots, better known as McCrae's Battalion, and the subject of a book by Jack Alexander of that title. See this link for more information.

[balbeggie]

Recruitment seemed to be in different parts of the country as there were quite a few from the Dundee area in this battalion, Some were in the signal section and others obtained commissions later on in the RFC and other regiments. I have a diary for one of them that has him attesting locally on 30 March 1915 and he went to Hornchurch on 3rd April 1915.