Enlistment dates and war diaries

[C Cooper]

Good afternoon

I am trying to track down information about two of my relatives who were killed in WW1.

The first is Private Alfred Badger of Birmingham who was born on the 10.4.1896 and was killed on 19.7.1916. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial. His regimental number was initially 240360 and later 2177, he was in 2/6thth Royal Warwickshire Regiment. I cannot find his enlistment date or war diaries with the exception of those after 17.7.1916 

The second Private William McPike born on 15.12.1897 and was killed at Pezieres on 16.4.17. He is buried at Epehy Farm Cemetery. I cannot find his enlistment date but I have the war diaries of 1/6 Royal Warwickshire Regiment that he was in thanks to advice received here. Family lore and his newspaper obituary says he was underage when he enlisted. His regimental number was originally 241083 and later 3781.

Any help you can offer would be very much appreciated.

regards

Chris

[Michelle Young]

2/6 RWR diaries here

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355332

[C Cooper]

Thank you Michelle, that is brilliant. I don't know what I am doing wrong. Do you have any thoughts about the enlistment dates?

[Michelle Young]

I can’t help with that I’m afraid. Alfred’s MIC shows he didn’t get overseas until after 1st January 1916. 

[C Cooper]

Thanks Michelle, then he survived for a maximum of 7 months. What does MIC stand for ?

Edited 10 January by C Cooper
Correction

[Michelle Young]

Medal Index Card. Williams card shows service after 1/1/16 but not date of entry into a theatre of war, like Alfreds. 

[Michelle Young]

@RussT and @kenf48 are excellent sleuths for looking for men’s enlisted dates, looking at other soldiers records. 

[C Cooper]

Thank you

[TEW]

I would suggest that in both cases the 2177 & 3781 numbers are their numbers when enlisted.

The six digit numbers are later and would not have been assigned until roughly the spring of 1917. This is part of a territorial renumbering system across the board.

Badger would never have known the 240360 number, McPike may have known his six digit number.

It's not unusual for deceased soldiers to be re-numbered.

TEW

[C Cooper]

Thanks. Is it possible to tell from the numbers approximately when they would have enlisted?

[TEW]

It's a case of researching other men from the RWR with close 4 digit numbers that were re-numbered in the block 240001-265000 which was assigned to the 6th RWR.

The 5th, 7th, 8th & 18th battalions were also re-numbered so there may well have been other men with the same 2177 etc. numbers. There may well be a 2177 man from regular battalions as well EG. 1st or 2nd.

Albert Hill is 2177 RWR but will be from another battalion.

It's a question of going through medal cards, medal rolls, searching for service records, death or injury records to build up a picture of 'when did 2175 2176, 2178 etc of 6th RWR enlist which will tell you when 2177 enlisted.

There is no look up list that gives the answer unless someone else has done the research.

TEW 

[C Cooper]

Thank you

[Allan1892]

1 hour ago, C Cooper said:

Private Alfred Badger of Birmingham who was born on the 10.4.1896 and was killed on 19.7.1916

His entry in the Soldiers' Effects register shows that there was a £9 War Gratuity paid --- perhaps a Forum member could use this to come u with an estimated month of enlistment.

(image courtesy of Ancestry)

[C Cooper]

I am trying to see if I have the calculations right.

Private William McPike's father received a £10 war gratuity at the rate of 10 shillings a month which equals 20 months service.

William was killed on 16th April 1917.

20 months before that was August 1915.

His enlistment was therefore in July/August 1915.

Am I any where near correct or not?

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, C Cooper said:

I am trying to see if I have the calculations right.

Private William McPike's father received a £10 war gratuity at the rate of 10 shillings a month which equals 20 months service.

William was killed on 16th April 1917.

20 months before that was August 1915.

His enlistment was therefore in July/August 1915.

Am I any where near correct or not?

Not quite but rule of thumb

£3 for 12 months = April 1916

then 10 shillings for each month £ 7 = 14 months so January/February 1915

3788 enlisted 6 January 1915 

Pte Badger £9 July 1916

£3 for 12 months = July 1915

£6 = 12 months = July/August but the gratuity only dates from 4 August so enlistment August 1914 

2406 enlisted 3 September 1914

A young man could enlist in the TF for Home Service from the age of seventeen but could not be sent on active service overseas until aged nineteen though many were.  So many in fact there was a War Office memo in February 1915.

Craig’s War Gratuity calculator

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

is more accurate and can probably give you the week they joined.

 

[AndrewSid]

Chris,

For background the TF units started at regimental number 0 when the force was created from the volunteers in 1908.  Usually a few hundred of the volunteers transferred over that April.  The rate at which service numbers racked up depending on the recruitment and turnover from 1908,  On wars declarations those numbers will have shot up dramatically in the days and weeks from August 1914.  

This regiment had a high number of TF battalions (5) so care must be taken to ensure the right man is analysed.  I’ve done a bit of work on BAGDER regarding enlistment:

2110      Brine 1/6th  Bn    06 June 1913

2150   Millard  6th Bn     28 Nov 1913

2174    French   6th Bn    16 Jan 1914  

2177  BADGER 2/6th Bn 

2179    Hobbis 6th Bn   30 Jan 1914

2199  Henry  6th Bn    20 Feb 1914

So this  puts him as a pre war territorial joining around late Jan 1914.

Ken -  this doesn’t quite tally with your numbers.

Andy

 

 

Edited 11 January by AndrewSid

[kenf48]

 

33 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Ken -  this doesn’t quite tally with your numbers.

Andy

 

 

II don’t see a conflict I was working on his gratuity, as stated war gratuity was only awarded from 4 August 1914 previous service didn’t count I should perhaps have said enlistment in or prior to August 1914.

Closest I could get was 2406 enlisting on 3 September so I wouldn’t argue with 2177 in January 1914.  It does in fact lend credence to the war gratuity estimate of August 1914

As you say the numbers would have increased after the declaration of war and the so called ‘rush to the colours’.

[AndrewSid]

Thanks Ken. 
 

I hadn’t twigged  gratuity only commenced at wars start. Every day a school day. 
 

 

[kenf48]

17 hours ago, C Cooper said:

The first is Private Alfred Badger of Birmingham who was born on the 10.4.1896 and was killed on 19.7.1916. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial. His regimental number was initially 240360 and later 2177, he was in 2/6thth Royal Warwickshire Regiment. I cannot find his enlistment date or war diaries with the exception of those after 17.7.1916 

One other observation  for the benefit of the OP if, as we agree Pte. Badger enlisted in January 1914, and he was embodied (for war service) with his unit on the 4/5 August that would have been the 6th Battalion not the 2/6th. Authority for a second line or reserve battalion was given on the 31 August 1914 once the first line was up to strength. Bear in mind the TF was competing with Kitchener's New Army for recruits.  In fact according to the LLT the 2/6 Royal Warwickshire was not raised until October 1914.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

Effectively, and often called the 'Reserve'  Battalion the second line initially included men too young, unfit or who had stood on their right to continue in Home Service from the 1first line or original battalion. When the first line 6th Battalion was deployed to.France in April 1915 the 2/6th remained in the UK training and feeding men into the first line. By my calculation Pte Badger was eighteen when war declared and therefore just too young for active service overseas with the first line  but by the time the second line 2/6th Battalion deployed to the BEF in May 1916 he would be 20 and of course conscription had been introduced in March and the Home Service option removed from those who, for whatever reason had not gone on active service with the first line.

see http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/

He was killed in what Chris calls ;the disastrous attack at Fromelles'

An introduction to the battle can be found on Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_at_Fromelles.

The war diary from September 1915 for the 2/6 can be downloaded from TNA for free if you register. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355332

Whilst there I would also download the next level or Brigade war diary as it is more likely to include maps orders etc.

 

[Michelle Young]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

He was killed in what Chris calls ;the disastrous attack at Fromelles'

As I explained in a previous thread about Alfred Badger. 
61st Division memorial is at Laventie.

 

[C Cooper]

Thank you all very much for your help. My day is taken care of and I will write it all up.

[Michelle Young]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

The war diary from September 1915 for the 2/6 can be downloaded from TNA for free if you register. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355332

As I posted in post #2 of this thread. 

[AndrewSid]

Chris,  

This may be of interest from the Times digital archive.  The casualty list published on the 28th of August 1916 has Badger listed as missing. The delay in reporting from event to print is entirely normal.

I have not looked at the engagement in which he was killed but if he and lots of his comrades from the battalion were unaccounted for they would be listed as missing.  The list below is for the Regiment not the 2/6th Battalion but no doubt you can search them up on CWGC to find out how many were 2/6th and actually died that day. What I’m getting to is that when a mans status was that of missing he would still be renumbered by the Army in the Spring of 1917 as there was the possibility of him being a PoW, and thus he received his 240360 number despite being sadly long dead. Ken did state all the above but i thought the actual list would be of interest. 

Edited 11 January by AndrewSid

[C Cooper]

Thank you very much for this