Variations in Turkish markings

[1DepotBat]

I've noticed some GEW88 bolts are marked with only the crescent moon, whereas others are marked with the moon and star.  Why the difference? 

[4thGordons]

Generally partially erased or partially mis-struck IMO

I believe the official mark was Moon and Star however 100+ years, corrosion, quick marking and often originally struck on curved surfaces = partial markings.

I know of no meaningful difference - others may have better insights

Chris

Edited 9 January by 4thGordons

[shippingsteel]

I am not exactly up to speed with which marks were originally used on the bolts themselves, however I do know that the rifle bolts were an extremely transient part of the actual rifle in these Turkish Gew88 towards the end of the war.

At the war's end when the British and Allied troops took occupation of Turkey they encountered massive stockpiles of Gew88 with little means of proper security to keep from falling into the "wrong hands" so they removed all the bolts and basically left them in situ.

So later when Ataturk took charge he set about rearming and issued contracts for brand new replacement bolts to be made for these rifles. These later bolts may have had different symbols marked on them as they changed mostly everything in the post-war period.

Cheers,  SS 

 

[AndyBsk]

You should provide the picture but there was a czechoslovak delivery of Gew88 bolts so when they are serialed with easter arabic digits and have a Z in circle on base of handle, so they should be for independent delivery of Gew88 bolts.

[1DepotBat]

Here is the picture of the bolt showing the crescent and star stamp.  I'm told this bolt is an original German made one as it has no circle Z mark and the serial number (matching itself) is arabic.  The rifle is matching, except for the rear sight and this bolt, and bears no other Turkish stamps, but does have a milled rear sight which is an indicator.  

Edited 10 January by 1DepotBat
corrected grammer

[AndyBsk]

When this bolt would be german so there would be inspector proofs which they are not, i assume with this type of crescent moon and star and normal font of digits that the bolt is turkish production, done post 1928. This is a czechoslovak delivery bolt, gunboard member owner, only for presentation on other side of base is Z in circle.

 

 

Edited 10 January by AndyBsk

[1DepotBat]

Your comments make a lot of sense AndyBsk.  I'm not sure why I didn't think about the German inspection proofs.  That would also explain why the rear sight has normal font numbers now.

[shippingsteel]

Sorry I should have picked up on this earlier as I did study up on the Turkish stuff a few years back. Yes any of the original Gew88 rifles that were sent out to Turkey as war aid would have had the standard German markings throughout. I don't believe they were modified or marked by the Turks until well after the war. 

The case of the Gew88/05 differs to all the other German Mauser rifles that were made for the Ottomans under contract, such as the M1887, M1890, M1893 and M1903. These were all marked with the Ottoman script, ownership marks, inspection symbols and serial numbers from new.

As Andy mentioned, that crescent moon and star shown in the photos provided, looks a lot like the style marked on the later Ankara produced Askeri Fabrika rifles.

Cheers,  SS 

[1DepotBat]

The Gew88/05 that this bolt is from must of been sent during the war, had the original bolt discarded as part of the demil, and then this "new" one made by the Turks after 1928.  

Prior to that of course, the rifle itself likely spent the first couple years of the war on the lines with the Germans.

[AndyBsk]

Gew88/05 should be have on ring old german units stamps?

[1DepotBat]

AndyBsk, yes it does.  One unit stamp is XX'd out, the other is not.  The parts are serial number matching to the receiver etc, so are original.

[AndyBsk]

One is for 12.Reserve Inf.Regiment, Ersatz Batallion 4.Company, weapon nr.239 which was striked out.

the other is 36.Reserve Inf.Regiment, 10.Company, weapon nr.121.

SN 13 should be on both parts, the bolt is a missmatch evidently.

[1DepotBat]

Yes, except for the bolt, all parts are numbered 13, even the trigger guard screws.

Thanks for decifering the unit stamps.  I don't know when it moved from 12 to 36, but it appears both regiments served on the western front in the opening days of the war.

[shippingsteel]

Very nice and clear markings stamped entirely to regulations. This is a nice change making them easy to decipher ... no argument there.! So we can notice the 2 different ways of marking the Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment here.

The 12th Regiment was obviously marked first, and under the 1877 regulations so we can date this marking to pre-1909 period. 12.R.R.

It was crossed out, then the later mark to the 36th Regiment was stamped under the 1909 regulations. So we know that this later mark dates to the post-1909 period. 36.R.

Cheers,  SS 

[AndyBsk]

Both units were in equipment of 1.Army but other way they are of different higher units, i am same opinion as SS that the 12RR is probably of older date. Even they mobilised in august 1914, the equipment was prepared longer for mobilisation, mostly after rearming of life units to Gew98 system.

[1DepotBat]

Thank you SS and ANDY.  Your information is amazing.  Would the 12RR or the 36R still have Gew88 in front line service in 1914/15, or would they have already been replaced  by the Gew98?

Would the 36R marking not have been striked out when the rifle went to Turkey?  I'm trying to understand if there's any evidence it went to Turkey during the war as aid, or if it may have remained in German use until going to Turkey postwar.

Did the regimental markings system remain in use (and accurate) throughout the war, or was it phased out in later years?

I hope you don't mind all my questions.  I find this discussion fascinating.

[AndyBsk]

I assume the 12.RR when so as mentioned was restamped to Reserve already before 1909, so possible 1904-08, the other could be realised post 1909 or even in 1914 by mobilisation. Turkey didnt understand what the marking are for, so not needed anything to do. Sorry to say but we dont known prior this time its a G88 or modified G88/05 as when using by germans in 1914 it should be already reworked to G88/05 or G88/14. I dont known about rifles G88 in old caliber went to Turkey, postwar sending anything from Germany is unreal. Turkey lost the war too so they couldnt get anything post 1918.

[1DepotBat]

It is a Gew88/05.  I should have clarified earlier.