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Remembered Today:

Eurostar Line and the Battlefields


Mark A

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Hi there- I've lost my French road map recently and I was wondering if anyone can tell me the names of the IWG cemetaries the Euro-Star line to Paris passes near? I counted about three or four easily seen from the train- and even caught a distant glimpse of Thiepaval as I sped towards Paris. But being mapless it's been driving me mad trying to find and name 'em!

Any help gladly appreciated.

Mark

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Drawing on my own use of this line and a look at the CWGC Michelin overprint then I am reasonably sure that if you are travelling from Paris to London the first cemetery on the West side of the line is Assevilliers; the second on the same side looks like Bapaume Australian; there are three on East side approaching Arras; one is Ecoust, the third I think. The CWGC Michelin overprint is not the easiest source of reference to use; it's hard to find numbers on the overprint in the index.

In the Arras area it is very difficult; there are many cemeteries close to TGV line, but it may not be possible to see them. They are in urban and residential areas and the TGV line is screened when it passes through them. And much depends on light quality, how fast the train is moving and which specs you've got on.

There are three or four more visible when the line passes through the Lille/Armentieres sector; these should be easier to identify. I'll have another look at the map over the weekend.

Incidentally I spent an hour or so last night trying to sort this out. I came away with an admiration for the French engineers who aligned the track whilst leaving so many British and French cemeteries intact.

In fact, did the construction of the track lead to the removal of any cemeteries?

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Hedley- you are the man! Many thanks for this, it's been an itch I've just had to scratch- and I can tell my Grandfather what to look out for when he goes. I'm sure the people on the Eurostar must have thought I was mad, my head going side to side like I was watching a tennis match as I looked for cemetaries. There were one or two as we sped near Bapaume (at least the name Bapaume was on a depot near the track). Catching a dim and distant glimpse of Thiepval was great as well- makes you appreciate the high ground.

Yes, the engineers did a good job. They must have removed a fair bit of scrap iron and debris I'd imagine. Didn't the Eurostar line subside into a former trench a few years ago- necessitating the closure of the line?

Thanks again- really appreciated.

Mark

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Very near Albert there is an Aerospetiale plant. OK so spelling may be off a bit! When I first went to Somme there were many new headstones in a nearby French Cemetery. I thought they had recovered many new bodies during road or rail construction, my memory is the rail line was also very near. Turned out as I learned later the headstones were there prior to being installed as replacements.

Hedley if you are really ambitious what cemeteries did I see on Eurostar Calais-Brussells? I suppose it would be an obvious grovel if I apologized for calling you a liar about the frog ravioli! So I will stand by the charge!

You all should consider yourselves fortunate indeed to have this terrific train service. In the US except for northeast corridor Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington it's dismal and even that is not in same league with Eurostar.

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The Aerospatiale plant near Albert is, I believe, where all the Exocet missiles are made. I always think it is one of the minor ironies of history that one can stand on the lip of the crater at Lochnagar and see the chimneys of the buildings where the Exocet is made.

Something to think about next Tuesday morning?

I'll come back on the CWGC sites which border the Eurostar line around Lille/Armentieres.

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The Aerospatiale plant near Albert is, I believe, where all the Exocet missiles are made.

Not any more. They are old technology now, anyway.

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Guest Hill 60

I don't know if this will affect anyone but I have read, on Ceefax, that the Belgian rail union has called a strike.

It will start at 20:00hrs UK time on Sunday 29 June. International Thalys services will be suspended and Eurostar trains for Brussels will stop at Lille.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this report, it comes from BBC's Ceefax which is quite often wrong!

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I came from Paris to Lille this evening by TGV; the Thalys service was having problems leaving Paris and the Lille TGV was 20 minutes late in arriving.

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CWGC cemeteries to be seen from a TGV/Eurostar between Paris and west of Lille.

I went to Paris this weekend armed with a Michelin CWGC overprint map and took up station next to a window. Identifying the CWGC cemeteries is trickier than one would think. The train goes like the clappers; the Michelin map is small scale; and around Arras the cemeteries are very close to each other. By the time you've sorted out one, you're ten miles up the track and missed 6. And one can see some travelling north to south, while others appear when travelling south to north. But here goes. These are all clear sitings within about 250 metres of the track; there are a lot of others which appear as blurs on the horizon or as a tantalising head of a Cross of Remembrance over five wheat fields.

From Paris looking west the first one out of Paris is Assevilliers CWGC; the second I could indentify was Cojeul CWGC just south of Arras; it stands alone in the middle of field.

From Paris looking east, the track follows the autoroute. Around Arras there are two easily indentifiable ones wedged in between the autoroute and the railway. The first one is Hibers Trench at Wancourt; the second a few hundred meters further north appears to be Monchy.

Perhaps those with good local knowledge of the Arras battlefield could confirm?

Around Lille one can see the Chapelle D'Armentieres group of cemeteries to the north of the line. Further towards the coast at Steenwerk the railway runs almost along side the Croix-du-Bac CWGC on the north side of the line; one can almost read the inscriptions on the headstones from the train.

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Hibers Trench Cemetery at Wancourt is sandwiched in between the TGV and the motorway. The husband of my grandmother's cousin is buried here. Lt Francis Joseph St Aubyn was killed in action leading 'A' company of 7 KRRC into an attack on German positions on 10 April 1917.

Click Here for a picture of Hibers Trench Cemetery.

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Hedley thanks for identifying the ones visible near Lille which I saw in April and wondered about.

If anyone does not know we are friends and really believes I seriously called you a liar I apologize, trying to get a laugh.

I confess I believed the bit about frog ravioli in Bethune from the beginning. The $64 question is did you eat it?

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I confess I believed the bit about frog ravioli in Bethune from the beginning. The $64 question is did you eat it?

Absolutley no offence taken, Paul. The frog ravioli is genuine; you can check it out in the Michelin Guide Rouge.

It's a two rosette Michelin restaurant and it is a bit out of my price range. I can recommend an excellent one rosette in the Nord. It specialises in nouvelle cuisine aux poissons and it is good VFM. There's also Le Buffet, a nice little Bib Gourmand in Esqbergues (?) in French Flanders just down the road from Hazebrouk. It is the buffet of the old station very tastefully converted à la mode Flamande.

Also ... but I digress. Next time you come over we'll do one of them! I sometimes think that there is a Gourmet's Guide to the Western Front waiting to be written.

Mark: thank you for confiming Hibers Trench - that's the one I saw. Can I ask some personal questions as a relative of someone buried there? It's clear that the engineers of both the motorway and the TGV line have gone to some trouble to avoid Hibers Trench CGWC. In doing so they have sandwiched it. What do you think they have done for the ambience of the cemetery? Do you think it would have been better if had been moved somewhere quieter, more tranquil?

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So the answer is you did not eat the frog ravioli! I confess I would not have either. Fried frog legs are quite popular here.

Gourmet guide to western front? I actually think it would be nice. I have done very well in Ieper, Arras , Peronne Verdun and even ALbert but I do not know the names of many of the restaurants. Very good one in Chateau-Thierry too, can tell you where it is but not name, on far side of Marne from main portion of town then left.

I have been to Bethune twice and eaten there but nothing special. I am not even sure why I was there!

Rain or not I sure wish I could be with those of you at the Somme tomorrow.

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Hibers Trench Cemetery at Wancourt is definitely one I've seen from the train- thanks so much for confirming the name Hedley and Mark. I've seen it quite often and it always makes me thoughtful- the transport arteries of a modern democracy blasting past the graves of men who helped secure and build it.

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Hi All:

What a great thread! You've managed to include three of my favorite things in life: the Western Front, trains, and food. :P Can one of you kind souls recommend a good travel guide book that covers these three topic plus accommodation? Many thanks in advance.

Garth

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Mark: thank you for confiming Hibers Trench - that's the one I saw. Can I ask some personal questions as a relative of someone buried there? It's clear that the engineers of both the motorway and the TGV line have gone to some trouble to avoid Hibers Trench CGWC. In doing so they have sandwiched it. What do you think they have done for the ambience of the cemetery? Do you think it would have been better if had been moved somewhere quieter, more tranquil?

Hedley - I have visited this cemetery just once (April this year) and at first I did think how sad that the last resting place of these brave men should end up squashed between two symbols of 21st century progress. Obviously I would prefer all cemeteries to be in quiet corners but progress is progress I suppose. Now it doesn't bother me despite the continuous rumble of traffic and the intermittent high speed train. I wouldn't want the cemetery moved to so it was in a quieter area, after all this is their last resting place. I hope that those who glimpse the cemetery as they speed past spare a thought for those men who's sacrifice has allowed everything we take for granted.

Hope that makes sense.

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Garth: You are a man after my own heart. You need two guide books:

Food: The Michelin Guide Rouge. Classifies the very best restaurants with rosettes; three is the top, two middle and one 'bottom'; there are about 18-20 of these scattered up and down the Front, including a two rosette in Bethune. Of the three rosette classification the Guide says: "One always eats here extremely well, sometimes superbly. Fine wines, faultless service, elegant surroundings. One will pay accordingly!"

If you are on a relatively modest budget, or if the loony is struggling against the Euro, go for Bib Gourmand. These are just below one rosette classfication; they are often killling themselves to get a rosette - but they cannot charge rosette prices. Excellent VFM. There are about 20 of these palaces of pleasure scattered along the old Front.

Accommodation: Use the Gîtes de France Guide National Chambres et Tables d'Hotes. This is the French guide to excellent bed and breakfast. There's an up-market version called Gîtes National Chambres d'Hôtes de Charme which offers B&B in houses with history, charm and beauty.

Bon appetit!

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Garth, you must be the man! Hedley has been, well let us say less than steadfast when it comes to the frog ravioli. A major dissapointment to us all I am sure.

It's now up to you to take up the torch! Step up to the plate! ( For those of you who are outside North America it's a baseball phrase but works for frog ravioli as well). Get yourself a train ticket from Canada to Bethune and go for the frog ravioli, report back to your forum pals! Understood? Righto!

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Thank you for that contribution, Mark. I am sure everyone can understand and empathise with it.

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Hi Hedley:

Thanks for your recommendations. My wife has made a note of the titles and will try to find them this weekend.

Can you offer some advice on train travel in France, Belgium, and Holland. We're thinking of flying from Vancouver to Amsterdam, then taking a train from Amsterdam to Paris. After we spend about a week in Paris, what's the best way to spend three weeks visiting the Western Front? A train from Paris to some central place in Northern France and rent a car? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Paul - I'm actually quite intrigued with the frog ravioli. As a kid, I spent three or four summers living with a French Canadian family in Quebec. One of my most vivid recollections of those summers was the annual frog hunt. We'd go out to their large pond and catch a couple of dozen large bullfrogs, bludgeon them, then cutoff and skin their legs. After this gruesome task was completed, the mother would prepare the legs by dipping them in eggs and then flour. They would then be fried in butter with a some fresh garlic. FANTASTIC!!

Garth

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Garth, we gigged frogs, that is speared them, cooked them the same way, frog legs are still on the menu of some restaurants here. Hope you get to Bethune and report!

Hedley knows France much better than I do, he speaks French. Trains are good except for the locals but I think it's nearly impossible to see all the front without a car. With three weeks you can go from Nieuport to the Vosges and should. Even driving out of Paris is tough, I would take Eurostar to LIlle, absolutely great train! and rent car there. It's pretty easy to take the train to the important towns near the line such as Ieper, Arras, Albert, Rheims, Verdun etc. but then you have to get to the villages and the fields, got to have a car.

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Garth: You should be able to get the Michelin Red Guide in Canada. The gite and chambres d'hôtes guide is published by Gites de France. You can order them on line from:

http://www.gites-de-france.fr/eng/

You need a car; a three week car hire for a Megane or Picasso from a reputable company will set you back about 8-900 euros (all insurances with no excess and second driver included) for 3500 kilometres, which is more than enough. In my experience car hire companies in France are laid back about minor scratches and bangs, much more so than their anglo-saxon counterparts. Hire in Paris and return to Lille or Brussels. Email me if you want advice on which car hire company to use or where to stay.

What to do and where to go depends on so many things: your interests, those of your wife, what you know and whether or not you've been before. if this is your first time, buy Rose Coombs book: 'Before Endeavours Fade'; it's strong point is that it has lots of detailed car tours around the major battle areas. You're Canadian and a Will Bird fan. Why don't you take '13 Years After' and try to retrace some of his steps?

Try to visit some non-British Army Western Front. Verdun is a must ... . Try and take in the son et lumière.

You are taking your wife. Good. Unless she is as interested as you are in the Front, build in some non-WW1 days. Go to the beach; do some Champagne tasting, take in an art gallery; take a day out and catch a train to London or Paris. It's a small price to pay to keep the ship on an even keel. Three weeks can be a long time.

Regards

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You are taking your wife.  Good.  Unless she is as interested as you are in the Front, build in some non-WW1 days.  Go to the beach; do some Champagne tasting, take in an art gallery; take a day out and catch a train to London or Paris.  It's a small price to pay to keep the ship on an even keel.  Three weeks can be a long time.

Hi Hedley:

Have you been talking with my wife? When I first broached the subject of visiting the Western Front she said, and I quote "We're not going to spend three weeks tramping around battlefields and going to war memorials and cemeteries are we?" I believe I said "Well, we are going to Paris for a week..."

Anyway, your point is well taken and my wife was very happy to read your post. I'll e-mail you in a couple of days seeking your advice on car rentals and accommodation.

For an itinerary, I thought we'd follow the CEF trail from 1914-1918. In very general terms: Yperes, St. Julien, Mount Sorrel, Courcelette, Vimy, Passchendaele, Amiens, Arras, Canal du Nord, Cambrai, and Mons. Is this over ambitious? And as you suggested, I'd like to visit Verdun.

One question, when's the best time to visit Northern France? Late June to mid July or late August to mid September? Many thanks.

Garth

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When I first broached the subject of visiting the Western Front she said, and I quote "We're not going to spend three weeks tramping around battlefields and going to war memorials and cemeteries are we?" ... (snip) ... One question, when's the best time to visit Northern France? Late June to mid July or late August to mid September?

Tell me about, it Garth. Partners can be very funny about this sort thing. I don't understand it, either :huh:

Seriously, three weeks of continuously patrolling brussel sprout fields in Flanders isn't every woman's idea of how to pass the summer holidays. In my considerable personal experiences (which I am not prepared to relate here, but are doubtless shared by many other subscribers to this Forum) partners are better off rolling with the punches rather than trying to fight it. As well as day-trips to the sea-side, Brussels, etc many other compromises are possible eg visit le Cateau; you do the battlefield; she does the excellent Manet Museum.

Your timetable looks fine. Don't try and do too much. You should both leave wanting to come back for more. Timings: there is little to chose between the periods you mention. The weather is about the same. One point to bear in mind is that hotels, restos and shops close during the summer; late June-mid July might be more affected by this than late August-September. But both periods avoid the main shut-down in late July to mid-August.

Drop me an email when you want more specific advice on B&B ane restaurants.

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Garth first timer unguided, also get Paul Reed, Walking the Somme and Walking the Salient. Do go to Verdun, inexpensive hotel downtown with very good restaurant is Hotel St Paul. Wish I could remember name of an Alsatian restaurant there, great.

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