British Legion

[Researchdogsbody]

Hi Listers

Not sure which section to post this request in. 

I am the Chair of the Family History Society of Cheshire and have been working with a family who are keen to trace their Grandfather's WWI records.  I have been through all the usual places and nothing for his name is coming up.  There seems to be a lot of family stories and not sure which are true or perhaps embelished a tad.

Anyway, in the 1970s their grandfather apparantly applied to the BL to try and get a pension from the Army for his WWI service that he never received at the time.  The paperwork has been destroyed. 

I wonder if anyone has come across such a pension being awarded and secondly, if I may, does anyone know how I go about contacting the BL, their website doesn't seem to have an email address for contact.  I have contacted the local branch but without success, as in no one has answered me. 

Thoughts/ideas all gratefully received

Thank you 

Edited 26 November by Researchdogsbody
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[Keith_history_buff]

Hi there,

The WW1 service records were kept at Arnside Street, and 80% of those were destroyed by a fire on 8-9 September 1940. (out of 6½ million documents only 1¼ million have been saved) My family members records likewise went up in smoke.

The British Legion would not keep copies of service records, nor would they collect service records. In contacting them, you are asking them for something they never possessed.

There may have been something in the possession of the Ministry of Pensions. Whether or not there is anything among the WFA MoP records that pertains to him is a good question.

The best thing, in my opinion, is for that person to start a thread on this forum, with as much genealogical detail as possible, as there are some very tenacious researchers on this site, who can put together information.

[Researchdogsbody]

Thanks Keith

Yes, i realise that any records may have been burnt - my own grandfather's survived but his brothers didn't. 

I just wondered if there may be records of the case within the local BL that helped him out rather than the records themselves. 

Nothing in the WFA either. 

I will take your advice and firstly ask the family if they mind my posting details first, thank you so much for your reply, much appreciated and very helpful as always 

Margaret 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Margaret,

It seems odd that no documentation was kept. I would presume that an affidavit or similar would be provided by the veteran to the Ministry of Pensions, stating what he recalled of his military career. You would think that a copy would have been kept with his medals.

Family legend, versus what actually happened, can result in two differing accounts of events.

 

[Researchdogsbody]

Ahh yes -therein lies the rub! 

M. 

[TEW]

Not 100% sure on this but I think In the 70s service records were kept at Hayes. Was it not the DHSS that dealt with pensions in the 70s?. 1966 MoP was merged to become MO social security which in 1968 became DHSS.

If the BL tried to put in a pension claim for this man whoever the BL corresponded with would have to check with Hayes who in turn would make enquiries with the medal office and the DHSS would also be involved.

The powers that be (were) would need to establish if this man was a former soldier and had a legitimate claim. In the absence of a service record the only remaining source would be the medal office.

If this man had medals IE. served in a theatre of war then one would expect to see a 1970s enquiry noted on his MIC if such enquiries were made.

I see you suggest you've found nothing for this man, not even medal records?

TEW

[Researchdogsbody]

Hello TEW

That is very helpful information. 

Since I first posted the other day I have found him in the 1921 Census, his surname Pyke [sometime Pike] was mistranscribed as Pope.  He was with the Cheshires in Co Wicklow.  The Army list in the 1921 Census as you will probably know, don't give numbers, just a rank, in this case, Corporal, and I have also found him in a newspaper article taking part in Regimental sports in 1924 and a Lance-Corporal.  The fact he was in Ireland, chimes with the family story although they also say he was in India. Would this be a possiblity for a Cheshire regiment?  He was born in 1900 so not sure when he actually signed up, later in the war I would think? No suggestion he signed up early.  Is it possible that he never served in WWI as such? 

He has a complicated life, handed over by his unmarried mother in Chatham sometime in 1901 to a couple from Crewe in Cheshire and then lived in Crewe all his life. His mother was in and out of Medway workhouse, where she had at least one other child before marrying in 1906 but never it seems tried to take him back. Later in his life he started to use the suranme of his 'adopted' family but was forced to change back after what looks like a row over a will.  I have traced him from birth to death, which given his early life and that of his mother has taken some working out and now I am just left with this mystery surrounding his time in the Cheshires. Attached is the 1921 Census for info.  See the entry number 11 on the page, Edward Pyke, aged 20 yrs 10 months, born in Chatham. 

Image Source: FindMyPast. 1921 Census. RG15. Piece 28129. Page 25 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Margaret, thanks for sharing.

With him being born in August 1900, I would have thought that the war would have ended before he had completed his training, assuming that he enlisted on his birthday.

The good news is that, in principle, given that he served from August 1920 onwards, his service record should be within the MOD/TNA record transfer.

It would appear his service number is 4115004. His barcode reference is ADT000532431. His date of birth is recorded as 2 August 1900. These are the WO 419 series of records, with the more helpful description of Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939.

The lead time on a record request is about 12 months. The admin fee is £24.35

[Researchdogsbody]

Thank you so much Keith, that is fabulous

Margaret 

[Keith_history_buff]

I was particularly pleased with the outcome. 

Even if there had been some kind of correspondence involving the British Legion, getting a copy of his service record would be far superior. I thought it was going to be one of those cases of "His records must have been incinerated in 1940, tough luck."

Everybody loves a happy ending.

This FAQ should be of interest.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/plans-policies-performance-and-projects/our-projects/ministry-of-defence-service-records/

This is the form to be completed. I would make a point of stating the barcode in the application, so that it makes their job easier.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mod-open-foi-request-step1

It will take them about five working days to come back to confirm they have it, and to request payment of the admin fee, on the proviso that you want a copy of the record.

Even if you were near Kew, the record is not in the catalogue right now, so it cannot therefore be ordered to be viewed in person. I daresay that will change in a few years. I have been told the files are not kept at Ruskin Avenue, but elsewhere, which is why four business days notice is required in advance when viewing those files that are on the catalogue.


 

[Researchdogsbody]

Very helpful, huge thanks Keith.  I will pass this onto the family so they can fill in the form. I will let you know how they get on. 

Margaret