Royal Army Service Corps in Gallipoli

[Kathryn Knight]

My grandfather, George Edwin Daly, was in the 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers Reg 021868 Unit 111 Cry (or Coy) and went to Gallipoli in 1915.

I then have him as being in the Royal Army Service Corps and R.A.O.C from 30/03/1915 in Gallipoli as a Driver. I am trying to find out more information on how he got to Gallipoli and what the role of the Driver was - was it to do with the horses or vehicles? Before this he had been a blacksmith apprentice in Devonport Dockyard.  He was awarded the Star, Victory and British War Medals.

He survived Gallipoli and in 1963 organised a reunion in Plymouth. I have letters that some of his comrades wrote to him about the reunion. They refer to the Unit as the Devon and Cornwall Army Service Corps Coy (T.F)

If anyone can help me with information about what he may have been involved in at Gallipoli I will be very grateful. 

 

[museumtom]

Born 1896. He was discharged from the army on 14/03/1920 with Malaria attributed to war service. Address on discharge-13 Short Park Road, Peverell, Plymouth. Served in the Royal Army Service Corps and Royal Army Ordnance Corps.

[Kathryn Knight]

Thankyou for your quick reply. I actually know all that and more about my grandfather. I have been searching him for quite a while. His record in WW2 is also quite fascinating.

What I'm trying to find out is about his time specifically in Gallipoli. 

Many thanks.

[michaeldr]

quote:- “My grandfather, George Edwin Daly, was in the 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers Reg 021868 Unit 111 Cry (or Coy) and went to Gallipoli in 1915.
I then have him as being in the Royal Army Service Corps and R.A.O.C from 30/03/1915 in Gallipoli as a Driver.”

Supposing that his service with the ASC from 30 March 1915 was also connected with the Lancs Fusiliers and the 29th Division, then you may find out more from WO95/4309 Divisional Troops: Divisional Train (246 - 247 - 248 - 249 Companies A S C) (1915 Apr - Nov) - Per the NA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557462 this file should be available via Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60380/

[Keith_history_buff]

Kathryn,

The service number starting "02" is indicative of the supporting services, rather than a Lancashire Fusiliers regimental service number.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-campaign-medal-index-cards/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-campaign-medal-rolls/

What is your rationale for him being in a regular battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers? His medal index card has him with the Army Service Corps and the Army Ordnance Corps.

The "T" prefix suggests horst transport rather than motor transport, which would tie in with his background as a blacksmith.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/letter-prefixes-to-british-soldiers-numbers-in-the-first-world-war/#:~:text=S1 to S4 mean that,re-enlisted after the war.&text=The man served in the Horse Transport section of the,re-enlisted after the war.

[Keith_history_buff]

It would appear that 

• Devonshire and Cornwall Company at Plymouth (became 247 Company, ASC)

Originally in the Wessex Brigade, transferred to the 29th Division.

That should be Wessex Division, not Wessex Brigade.

[Keith_history_buff]

He appears on the 1914-15 Star roll, compiled 31 August 1920 by the RAOC, archive reference WO 329/2923. All the other entries are for soldiers who later ended up in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. (The "Royal" was informally added in 1918.) He disembarked in Egypt on 30 March 1915.

He also appears on the BWM & VM roll, archive reference WO 329/2119.

Image courtesy Ancestry

[michaeldr]

29 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

He disembarked in Egypt on 30 March 1915.

29th Division's 86th Brigade WD (NA ref WO/95/4310) indicates that the 1st Lancs Fusiliers were on HT Alaunia and “All horses of the Brigade and transport of other units” were on HT Mercian, while 86th Brigade HQ was on HT Ausonia
HT Ausonia arrived Alexandria 7a.m. 29th March 1915 & found the Lancs Fusiliers already disembarking and moving to Mex Camp
The Mercian arrived on the morning of 30th March 1915 and the horses disembarked & marched to camp

[Keith_history_buff]

This all dovetails nicely. Whilst the clerk has documented Driver Daly disembarking in Egypt, I do not for one moment doubt that his ultimate destination was Gallipoli, and the clerk jumped the gun somewhat when compiling the 1914-15 Star roll in August 1920.

[michaeldr]

 

Keith, 
while the ultimate destination was Gallipoli, it's not clear at all to me which ASC units actually reached the peninsula, or when.
I suggest therefore that the War Diary mentioned earlier [https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557462] should definitely be consulted

The late Col Michael Young in his ASC 1902-1918 quotes Capt C A Cooke a company commander in the 29th Divisional Train (87th Brigade) as working with pack mules during the first week of May 1915 as “wagons at present impossible”. 

[Kathryn Knight]

Thank you all so  much. That has given me some things to look into further.

The letters I have that were sent to my grandfather mention several others who were there including:

Col. Godfrey Wycisk (who I believe was awarded an OBE later),

Major Shorts (whose War Diary entries I have seen)

A.G Wenmouth, (named his eldest son after Godfrey Wycisk)

Richard Triscott, (Best man for A.G. Wenmouth)

Thomas Prideant,

Harry Brooks,

Charley Drake,

Cyril Satterley,

James Kingdom, (lent from the Navy to ASC to run the boats to land the supplies. His Commanding Officer was Captain Merville. James survived the sinking of HMS Oceon in the Dardanelles on 18 March 1915 and was then sent to the A.S.C for about 18 months)

H.F.O. Bruce,

Walter Postle

Sergeant Webb

I don't know if these names will be of interest to anyone but I have been trying to find out a little bit about them as they are part of my grandad's story.

I have a photo which I think maybe from the reunion but I'm not 100% sure.

 

 

The first man on the left at the back is my grandad.

[kenf48]

As @michaeldr has pointed out the war diaries for the 29th Divisional Train are on Ancestry

Here if you subscribe

The diary shows disembarkation at Alexandria on the 3rd April, after reorganisation they landed on the Peninsula via Lemnos on the 25th April when they disembarked on W Beach. The Supply element began to immediately take supplied up to the front line using mules from the Zion Mule Corps.

The horses and vehicles were disembarked on the Peninsula on the 30th April 1915.

After evacuation to Egypt the Divisional Train was transferred to the 53rd (Welsh) Division in March 1916.  This Division saw service in Palestine.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/53rd-welsh-division/

Pte Daly was embarked on the Hospital Ship 'Assaye' from Alexandria on the 23rd January 1920 arriving in the UK in a report dated 5th February 1920.

As you are aware his service record has not survived.

The AOC number appears to indicate a transfer around August 1916, though these men are designated 'New Force' so I have reservations as to the exact date.

see

The major logistics base for the campaign in the Middle East and therefore the  (R)AOC was in the Suez Canal Zone and the malaria mosquito flourished in the marshes around that area so it seems likely that's where he contracted the disease.

111 Company refers to his service with the AOC I do not know where they were based.

As an aside and mentioned a number of times the Date of entry to theatre for Gallipoli can be difficult to reconcile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

As an aside, there was a compulsory transfer of men to the Army Ordnance Corps on 14 February 1918, of various men who were in France & Flanders at this point.

Derived from the service record of Gersham George Daniel, whose name appears on the roll.

[Keith_history_buff]

Oops, Gerson's number is way different, so ignore the above post, when trying to determine Daly's subsequent service in the Army Ordnance Corps.

I got too excited when I saw a surviving record. This roll is recording soldiers in alphabetical order, not service number sequential order. I made the cardinal error of not checking the regimental service numbers.

The names on the 1914-15 Star page with Daly are in alphabetical order. This is in keeping with Paragraph 9 of AO 20 of 1919, the names of the NCOs & Other Ranks are recorded 'in alphabetical order'. The same approach had been followed with the 1914 Star, AO of 350 1917 refers. 

Edited 26 September by Keith_history_buff
Added text in blue font

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Kathryn Knight said:

The letters I have that were sent to my grandfather mention several others who were there including:

Col. Godfrey Wycisk (who I believe was awarded an OBE later),

Odd, when Colonel Wycisk was appointed Brevet Colonel 5th Devon Regt.T.A. (1st September 1937) no mention was made of service in the Dardanelles.

The Western Morning News and Gazette reported 'He joined the Territorial Army (sic) on June 23 1908.  He went to France with the Army Service Corps in 1917 and carried out administrative work as adjutant to the commandant at Ypres. He continued on administrative duties until 1921."  His medal index card shows he first entered a theatre of war (France) on 26th March 1917 Sergeant ASC S4/212720 later commissioned to the Labour Corps.

Begs the question what was the reunion? The two men wearing medals both have the 14-15 Star indicating probable service in Gallipoli. 

Your grandfather was renumbered to the Regular ASC along with his comrades from the Devon and Cornwall Brigade Army Service Corps Coy on the 15th January 1915 when they became part of the 29th Divisional Train.

We don't know when he first enlisted in the TF but prior to that he would have had a four digit number. The service records  (part) of Pte 2073//T4/056650 Driver R.H.Delafield have survived.  They show he re-engaged in 1913 in the TF having previously joined in 1908, he signed the Imperial Obligation on the 8th November 1914 as I imagine your grandfather did.  He is shown as landing in Egypt on the 15th March 1915.

 Major Short's diary gives a good indication of their service in Gallipoli.

As for the other names listed:-

A.G.(Ashley Guy) Wenmouth S4/212188 No overseas service Silver War badge records give enlistment as 7 August 1914

The only Richard Triscott I could find was in the RAVC and served in France SE/7381 16.10. 1915

Dvr Samuel Charles Drake joined Plymouth 7.4.13 T/2137 renumbered with your grandfather T4/056652 was aged 17 on enlistment with his parents permission and with your grandfather entering Egypt 30 March 1915. His (part) service record has survived. He was employed as a storeman on discharge which was also a function of the AOC.

Dvr. C. J.  Satterley T4/056685 entered theatre Egypt 30 March 1915 so he was with your grandfather.  The 14-15 Star Roll for the ASC shows they were sequentially renumbered to the ASC

Dvr W.C. Postle (?) T4/041555 RASC France 20.9.1915

I haven't found Bruce or Webb though you may care to browse the 14-15 Star Roll

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

On 23/09/2024 at 16:37, museumtom said:

Born [31 July]1896. He was discharged from the army on 14/03/1920 with Malaria attributed to war service. Address on discharge-13 Short Park Road, Peverell, Plymouth. Served in the Royal Army Service Corps and Royal Army Ordnance Corps.

  

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

After evacuation to Egypt the Divisional Train was transferred to the 53rd (Welsh) Division in March 1916.  This Division saw service in Palestine.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/53rd-welsh-division/

Pte Daly was embarked on the Hospital Ship 'Assaye' from Alexandria on the 23rd January 1920 arriving in the UK in a report dated 5th February 1920.

As you are aware his service record has not survived.

[snip]

The major logistics base for the campaign in the Middle East and therefore the  (R)AOC was in the Suez Canal Zone and the malaria mosquito flourished in the marshes around that area so it seems likely that's where he contracted the disease.

111 Company refers to his service with the AOC I do not know where they were based.

It looks like this man served with 111th Company, but did not live to tell the tale to the next generation, succumbing to malaria.

04623 Ernest Arthur Sickelmore, Corporal (1891-1920)

https://astreetnearyou.org/person/659344/Corporal--Sickelmore

Information diligently added by the late Yvonne Fenter, professional genealogist, to the following profile
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4028014

[Keith_history_buff]

Sickelmore transferred to Class Z 9 November 1919, to die a year later.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 23/09/2024 at 16:25, Kathryn Knight said:

My grandfather, George Edwin Daly, was in the 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers Reg 021868

021868 was his service number in the AOC

Before that his ASC number was T4/056651 which must have been issued early in 1915 if not 1914

Without a service record, it's hard to tell, but a look at soldiers with near numbers whose records have survived may give a clue as to when he joined the ASC.

(It didn't become RASC until December 1918.)

 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

Before that his ASC number was T4/056651 which must have been issued early in 1915 if not 1914

As noted above the men of the Devon and Cornwall Brigade ASC Company (Mutley Barracks Plymouth -Wessex Division Supply Train)were transferred to the Regular ASC and renumbered in January 1915 when they became part of the 29th Divisional Train on the formation of the Division.

The 14-15 Star Roll shows men in the T4/0566** entered theatre (Egypt) around the same date. The inference being they were renumbered in a block issued by the relevant Record Office. The series appears alphabetical i.e. Ball - T4/056643 to Williams T4/056694. Daly is out of the alphabetical sequence between Delafield and Drake.

We don’t know Dvr. Daly’s original number (b. 31 July 1896)  so could legitimately enlist aged 17 in the TF i.e. 1913 he was therefore under age by a four months for deployment in a theatre of war.  
i  suggest like Dvr. Drake, latterly T4/ 056652 ,originally T/2137 he probably enlisted August 1913. It seems unlikely a wartime enlistment would be renumbered and posted in January 1915.

More difficult to track is his transfer to the AOC though it may have been around August 1916.  He clearly remained in the Middle East for the duration of the war after evacuation from Gallipoli as he came home from Alexandria.

As an aside in 1921 Daly’s occupation is given as engine smith, a skill similar to blacksmith but usually associated with steam engines.  No doubt a valuable skill in an AOC workshop. 

[Kathryn Knight]

I am attaching a record that I have compiled from artefacts and information from family and research. I'm not sure on the actual timings now - especially after Gallipoli. Anyway thought it might be of interest to those of you who have helped. It does go on to WW2 and beyond. You can see he was seldom at home!

Thank you to you all for your help. I am very thankful for your responses. 

George Edwin Daly Service Record.pdf

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It still contains errors Kathryn.

He was in the ASC on 30th March 1915 and had been so for an as yet unknown time period. 

Can you provide any documentation to show he was ever in the Lancashire Fusiliers?

His service number 021868 was his AOC number, and nothing to do with the LF.

He transferred directly from the ASC to the AOC but the date of his transfer is not presently known.

Could you show his Certificate of Employment please?

Edited 25 September by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Kathryn Knight said:

I'm not sure on the actual timings now - especially after Gallipoli.

As Dai has pointed out as regards his service in the Great War it does contain a number of errors.

The documentation, or Certificate of Employment confirms what we thought and it would be useful to see

He enlisted in the Territorial Force Devon and Cornwall Brigade Company based at Mutley Barracks Plymouth 13th May 1913 he was slightly under age as he was seventeen on the 31 July 1913.

His unit and the soldiers within it were transferred from the TF to the Regular ASC in January 1915 and renumbered as previously described. (Evidence; Medal Rolls and close number records of soldiers serving in the Company).

He disembarked at Gallipoli on 30th March 1915 with his ASC unit which was now part of the 29th Divisional Train (Evidence: Medal Roll Medal Index Card)

He did not serve in the Lancashire Fusiliers.

The Certificate of Employment produced confirms near number sampling that he transferred to the AOC on 7 August 1916.  By this time the 29th Divisional Train had reformed in Egypt and was transferred to the 53rd(Welsh) Brigade.  He would have taken an Army Trade test to be employed as a smith, so the fact he reverted to clerk in 1919 seems strange.

The Siege of Kut began on the 7th December 1915 and ended on the 29th April 1916.  At this time he was still in the ASC neither the 29th Division nor the 53rd (Welsh) Division to which the 29th Divisional train was transferred on the 17th March 1916 were involved in the relief attempts.

He may have served in Mesopotamia, the logistics base was at Basra but we would have to know where 111 Company AOC  was deployed. I don't know if @Terry_Reeves can help us with that.  

Whilst Basra was the main base for operations in Mesopotamia the route to the port was via India.  Not sure where the information concerning the Bombay (Mumbai) Riots come from but the most notorious were the Prince of Wales riots in November 1921 by which time he was back working in the Dockyard (1921 Census).

We know he embarked Alexandria for the UK in January 1920 suffering from malaria (Evidence: MH106 records on FMP) Apart from the Medal Card and Rolls this is the only documentation online that supports his service.

As Dai has already mentioned Bothe the ASC and AOC were given the 'Royal' title after the war in recognition of their wartime effort.

We also know that in 1921 he was employed as an engine smith at Devonport Dockyard (Evidence 1921 Census)

In 1939 he was an ARP Warden (Evidence 1939 Register)

[Kathryn Knight]

I've attached his discharge paper. Where it says other action I'm not sure what they all refer to. Does this shed any light on where he was and when? I'll look for his certificate of employment - I know I've got it somewhere!

[kenf48]

16 minutes ago, Kathryn Knight said:

've attached his discharge paper.

This document is his pension record @Matlock1418 will interpret it for you

[Kathryn Knight]

Certificates of Employment attached.

I've also attached a Personal History Sheet which I presume my grandad typed. This is where I've got a lot of my information from.