WilliamRev Posted 16 September Share Posted 16 September I am looking for a list/table of casualty figures for each division (it is the regular divisions in 1914 and 1915 that I am most interested in), if possible monthly, but even annual figures would be of use as long as they are per division. The Official History Vols 1 & 2 have some for the week of Mons and Le Cateau, and then again for October-December 1914 which is a start - perhaps there are more in the OH that I have not yet spotted? This is proving a much harder task than I had anticipated, and any help and thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 17 September Admin Share Posted 17 September I had a look at Statistics of the Military Effort... but it doesn't break the figures down to Divisional level. However a quick look at newspapers suggest there is some hope - just need to find the right publication. This is from Leven Advertiser & Wemyss Gazette 2 January 1919 (courtesy FMP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 17 September Admin Share Posted 17 September Mr Bonar-Law is quoted in an extract I saw as having given a written answer in Parliament (regarding Naval casualties) so a search of |Hansard might also prove useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 17 September Author Share Posted 17 September Thanks! Yes I too headed straight for Statistic of the ME - you'd think that in the many hundreds of pages there would be some sort of casualty breakdown per division. I will see what Hansard comes up with - might be an interesting search in any case. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace Posted 17 September Share Posted 17 September 23 August 24 August 26 August Cavalry Division 6 252 5 First Division 9 42 - Second Division 35 59 - Third Division 1,185 557 1,796 Fourth Division - - 3,158 Fifth Division 386 1,656 2,631 19 Brigade 17 40 477 The above numbers are from Brigadier Colin R. Ballard's (e)book "Smith-Dorrien", Pickle Partners Publishing, 2015. Originally published in 1931 under the same title. Total casualties only, not broken down by killed, wounded, missing. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 18 September Share Posted 18 September You might get something in the WDs of the Divisional Adjutant and Quarter-Master Generals of the above Divisions. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace Posted 18 September Share Posted 18 September I transcribed this from the war diary of Fourth Division's Adj. & Q.M.G. files several years ago. I've not found another like it for any other early (Mons, Le Cateau) division. Not the last word by any means, but I have downloaded all the quarter-master files for the first seven divisions without finding something similar. 4th Division Casualties as of 5 Sept., 1914.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 21 September Author Share Posted 21 September Thanks for all these contributions Dave, Dave and Brian. Dave wrote: 'However a quick look at newspapers suggest there is some hope - just need to find the right publication. This is from Leven Advertiser & Wemyss Gazette 2 January 1919'. I wonder if these figures were ever forthcoming? Various regimental and divisional histories have casualty figures for their particular units, but I was hoping for a single publication that has used a uniform method to collect the figures of different divisions over the same time-frame. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 21 September Admin Share Posted 21 September I have not found them so far in either newspapers or Hansard - but it may have been my search terms at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 21 September Admin Share Posted 21 September Perhaps someone might be able take a look at The Times Archive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 21 September Share Posted 21 September (edited) Having never tried this, I make a suggestion: how about CWGC database ? Of course, only deaths are tabulated, so total casualties are bound to be a much greater order of magnitude, especially if many prisoners were included in the losses. But you do find a search feature which stipulates specific regiments, along with dates and country in which deaths are commemorated. It’s probably not available by division. If it is, that would be immensely helpful. An order of battle would identify every battalion, and using the criterion of the battalions in these regiments, and thence from those regiments to the divisions which deployed them, could an investigation afford you a total number of deaths , which might allow for an extrapolation based on notional numbers of wounded and prisoners ? A heck of a lot of heavy lifting, a labour of love, but, maybe , revealing . Phil Edited 21 September by phil andrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 29 September Author Share Posted 29 September (edited) I think that with plenty of time one could use Soldiers Died or the CWGC website to compile some meaningful figures to compare each division. The various divisional/brigade war diaries do yield some casualty figures, although in 1914 with 3rd Division (the one I have looked at the most) some records are missing. Also, groups of men, and on at least one occasion a whole company, keep going astray and are counted as 'missing' (and appear as such in the casualty figures), and it takes much digging in battalion war diaries to find out if, and how many of them turned up again, often having been serving temporarily with other divisions, and if the casualty figures make this reappearance clear. In the meantime, as far as 1914 is concerned, I am making do with the figures quoted in the Official History, even though they just cover the two periods of heavy fighting, Mons/Le Cateau and La Bassee/1st Ypres, and not the fighting in-between which we know yielded some casualties, albeit on a much lesser scale. William Edited 29 September by WilliamRev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 29 September Share Posted 29 September The 56th Division history by Major C.H. Dudley Ward reports casualties as: Officers 1,470 Other Ranks 33,339 Total 34809 Formed in the first days of February 1915. Last cadre returned on 10th June 1919. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 30 September Share Posted 30 September (edited) Would I be right, Bob, in commenting that the figures you cite above indicate that the 56th Division suffered casualties that equated, roughly, to twice its nominal strength ? If so, I wonder how far that might represent the “ norm “ for the war. There must’ve been wide variations in the proportions of fatalities, reflecting how many prisoners or gas cases the division in question suffered. Gallipoli yielded some very high ratios of killed. I’ll find an example and pitch the data. The 29th Division comes to mind. Editing here : from footnote on page 343 of Rhodes James’s Gallipoli, battle casualties of the 29th Division cited as 9,042 killed or missing, and 10,922 wounded, aggregating 19,964. This for a period of just several months. A sobering statistic being that only 304 British prisoners of war were taken by the Turks from all units of the British army in the campaign. The implication for the proportion of fatalities amongst the casualties is appalling. In addition , 13,977 of the division’s complement was incapacitated through disease or accident., although surprisingly few of these died. The highest divisional battle casualties for the 1916 Battle of the Somme, according to Prior and Wilson, were suffered by the 30th, and totalled 17,374. Another shocker : 2nd Battle of Ypres. 28th Division . Total casualties, 15,533. The killed and missing , 9685. Good grief ! Phil Edited 30 September by phil andrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 30 September Share Posted 30 September I cannot really confirm nor deny your theorey. I cannot find my numbers for the 56th. The Long Long Trail has a section on the make up and size of various units. It suggests a Division's strength was just over 18000. However that includes Cavalry which as far as I can ascretain the 56th never had. The other factor is the reorganisations which took place particulalry in the RFA and in reducing the number of Infantry Brigades from 4 to 3. Other factors to consider would be thei actual involvment in conficts: The 56th History records that in its 1,010 days in France and Flanders,it spent 100 days in action during major operations, 385 days in an active sector, 195 days in quiet sectors and 330 days in rest. The 56th sufferred particualy at the Somme in 1916, Ypres in 1917 and during the Mars Offensive in 1918. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 30 September Share Posted 30 September (edited) On 29/09/2024 at 13:28, WilliamRev said: I think that with plenty of time one could use Soldiers Died or the CWGC website to compile some meaningful figures to compare each division. The various divisional/brigade war diaries do yield some casualty figures, although in 1914 with 3rd Division (the one I have looked at the most) some records are missing. Also, groups of men, and on at least one occasion a whole company, keep going astray and are counted as 'missing' (and appear as such in the casualty figures), and it takes much digging in battalion war diaries to find out if, and how many of them turned up again, often having been serving temporarily with other divisions, and if the casualty figures make this reappearance clear. In the meantime, as far as 1914 is concerned, I am making do with the figures quoted in the Official History, even though they just cover the two periods of heavy fighting, Mons/Le Cateau and La Bassee/1st Ypres, and not the fighting in-between which we know yielded some casualties, albeit on a much lesser scale. William William, You allude to the lesser scale of the casualties in between Le Cateau and First Ypres. The Aisne fighting in mid September 1914 produced the highest single day’s loss of life in the BEF throughout 1914, including First Ypres. I hope memory doesn’t fail me here. Forgive me if I’m wrong. I’ll search through CWGC data, by date, to check. 14th September , 1914, CWGC reveals 1,130 deaths in France. This, I think, is about as bad as it got for the BEF in 1914. Maybe First Ypres, 31st October, rivalled it . Probably many more prisoners lost in the First Ypres fighting, which would swell total casualties beyond the Aisne’s toll on the single day. There was a single British division that was very badly bloodied on the Aisne on 14th September. I forget which one. Significant that Le Cateau, despite its notoriety, cost fewer deaths than either of the other two days cited. The huge haul of prisoners- many of them stragglers- inflated the total casualties attributed to 26th August 1914. Phil Edited 30 September by phil andrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 September Admin Share Posted 30 September On 16/09/2024 at 18:30, WilliamRev said: perhaps there are more in the OH that I have not yet spotted? I have not found them either William, 'I might not be able to see the wood for the trees' mind you! There seems to be numbers given for each battle but it would take some sitting down with a pen and note book, reading and adding up the totals. I have looked at the 1914 and 1915 OHs a number of times over the years and not found a list per Div/Brigade/Regiment. Other than this, which I am sure you have seen? It is almost as if the publication of such a list, would be seen lacking in respect to the casualties and their families? Individual Divisional histories may show something? Regards Bob. Screenshot courtesy of Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/militaryoperatio02edmo/page/466/mode/2up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 1 October Admin Share Posted 1 October This book may help you @WilliamRev? There are a few pages to read, start at book page 237 to 363. https://archive.org/details/statisticsofmili00grea/page/236/mode/2up Free to read, no registering needed for this online book, a reputable site. Regards, Bob. Edit here; The book mentioned in the footnote page 237, ''General Annual Report of the British Army 1913-1919'' is the subject of this thread on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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