8970 Paton. Seaforth Highlanders

[Stueyp]

Looking for help. I know Pte 8970 Charles Nicolson Paton died 13th October 1914. During the capture of Meteren. 
Im looking for any information on how he may have died. 
Better still I’m looking for any photos of him. 

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum.

He was killed in action.

The War Diary might help with the circumstances. 

You might find a photo in the newspapers local to the area where he lived.

Russ

[mancpal]

You may already know he is buried in Meteren Military Cemetery. On the CWGC site it gives a map reference to the site of his initial burial prior to post war concentration.  
I’m hopeless with tech but there are a few members on here that could well provide you with a trench map/satellite image of the exact spot. 
Hope this helps.

Simon

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, Stueyp said:

Better still I’m looking for any photos of him.

Image courtesy of FindaGrave website

Pvt Charles Paton (unknown-1914) - Find a Grave Memorial

[Allan1892]

From the newspaper, The Scotsman, 21st November 1914

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Stueyp]

Thanks Russ, I have a copy of the diary for the day. 
It gives generic info but I was trying to find details if how he may have died. 

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, Stueyp said:

Looking for help. I know Pte 8970 Charles Nicolson Paton died 13th October 1914. During the capture of Meteren. 
Im looking for any information on how he may have died. 
Better still I’m looking for any photos of him. 

I was very interested to see your post, as I am distantly related to Isaac John Shortman, who would have been killed serving alongside Charles Nicolson Paton and is buried only a few rows away. As their service would have very largely mimicked each other I hope you find the following of interest: 

"Some people will know I put Seaforth Highlanders kit appropriate to the WW1 era together as a result of finding out I had a very distant cousin, Isaac Shortman, who was a pre-war regular with them.

His service record has not survived, so information on him has always been sparse - born in 1890 and raised in Bath, he joined the 2nd Bn. Seaforth Highlanders in March 1911 when he was 21.

 

The summer of 1914 would have found him well settled into army life as Private 681, and his Medal Index Card shows he was shipped over to France with the rest of the 2nd Bn. when they disembarked very late on the 23rd August - a proper Old Contemptible, entitled to the 1914 Star and Bar.

 

Early the next morning they were thrown straight into the thick of things in the Retreat from Mons. The War Diary well illustrates the fighting and confusion that went on, with men getting little or no sleep, blankets and waterproofs being unavailable, missing transport meaning no food, a march of over 8 hours on the night of the 25-26th August, etc, etc.

 

Though I can't prove it, he was almost certainly involved in the opening confusing flurry. What I can state with certainty was that his was to be a very short war - less than two months later he was involved with the assault on the village of Meteren (taken by the Germans shortly before) on the 13th October, and was one of 18 NCO's and men of the 2nd Seaforths to be killed in its successful recapture, a great military success at the time, but sadly eclipsed by the larger battles that were to follow, and now largely forgotten as a result. He was buried in what became known as Meteren Military Cemetery, where he lies to this day.

 

Here my information ended, until only very recently two new pieces of information came into my possession. The recent release of Soldier's Effects shows in his will he left all his property to one Miss Marie Murphy. We have no idea who she is, and the reason he decided to join the Seaforths (whose base in Scotland is about as far away from Bath as is possible in the UK!) has always been a source of interested speculation to me. I have always wondered if a young lady was involved...

 

And today I received the icing on the cake. My mother had been in contact with Sue Spiller, a decendant of Mary Jane Russell (nee Shortman) - Isaac's older sister. She had a photo showing Mary's family - and Isaac is shown in his full Seaforth best with them!

 

We believe the picture dates to 1912, as it appears to show Mary's children up to the birth of Edwin F. Russell, but not Francis Edward Russell (their last child, not born until the following year). Isaac is in bandsman uniform, with wings, full plaid, and the musicians lyre on his upper right arm. This has raised a little more speculation for me, as Isaac also clearly has up two LSGC chevrons, which denote 5 years good conduct, when he could have barely accumulated enough with the Seaforths to qualify for one stripe (2 years), if that. So another mystery...

 

Either way, I am absolutely chuffed to bits to be able to see the face of Isaac for the first time." 

 

 

 

Edited 10 September by Andrew Upton

[Stueyp]

Thanks Russ, I have a copy of the diary for the day. 
It gives generic info but I was trying to find details if how he may have died. 

[Stueyp]

35 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Image courtesy of FindaGrave website

Pvt Charles Paton (unknown-1914) - Find a Grave Memorial

 

If this is him I am eternally grateful to all

[Allan1892]

11 minutes ago, Stueyp said:

If this is him I am eternally grateful to all

Def your man -- although the 'blurb' at the bottom right says Charles M Paton it goes on to say that he was the eldest son of Charles S Paton -- CWGC record shows that he was the son of Charles Smith Paton.

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

It would appear that he was a pre-war soldier. Paul Nixon's excellent website shows that soldier 8716 enlisted on the 5/2/1904 and soldier 9295 enlisted on the 27/11/1905. I would suggest that Charles would have enlisted sometime in 1905.

[Stueyp]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

From the newspaper, The Scotsman, 21st November 1914

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

Thank you 

[Allan1892]

Correction to my suggested time frame of Charles enlisting. I have found two soldiers that served in the 2nd Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders that have surviving service records ---

8963 -- Lawrance Greenhill; 2nd Battalion; enlisted 26/10/1904

8970 -- Charles N Paton

8988 -- John McKenna; 2nd Battalion; enlisted 15/11/1904

Charles would have enlisted sometime between 26/10/1904 and 15/11/1904

[Stueyp]

55 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

I was very interested to see your post, as I am distantly related to Isaac John Shortman, who would have been killed serving alongside Charles Nicolson Paton and is buried only a few rows away. As their service would have very largely mimicked each other I hope you find the following of interest: 

"Some people will know I put Seaforth Highlanders kit appropriate to the WW1 era together as a result of finding out I had a very distant cousin, Isaac Shortman, who was a pre-war regular with them.

His service record has not survived, so information on him has always been sparse - born in 1890 and raised in Bath, he joined the 2nd Bn. Seaforth Highlanders in March 1911 when he was 21.

 

The summer of 1914 would have found him well settled into army life as Private 681, and his Medal Index Card shows he was shipped over to France with the rest of the 2nd Bn. when they disembarked very late on the 23rd August - a proper Old Contemptible, entitled to the 1914 Star and Bar.

 

Early the next morning they were thrown straight into the thick of things in the Retreat from Mons. The War Diary well illustrates the fighting and confusion that went on, with men getting little or no sleep, blankets and waterproofs being unavailable, missing transport meaning no food, a march of over 8 hours on the night of the 25-26th August, etc, etc.

 

Though I can't prove it, he was almost certainly involved in the opening confusing flurry. What I can state with certainty was that his was to be a very short war - less than two months later he was involved with the assault on the village of Meteren (taken by the Germans shortly before) on the 13th October, and was one of 18 NCO's and men of the 2nd Seaforths to be killed in its successful recapture, a great military success at the time, but sadly eclipsed by the larger battles that were to follow, and now largely forgotten as a result. He was buried in what became known as Meteren Military Cemetery, where he lies to this day.

 

Here my information ended, until only very recently two new pieces of information came into my possession. The recent release of Soldier's Effects shows in his will he left all his property to one Miss Marie Murphy. We have no idea who she is, and the reason he decided to join the Seaforths (whose base in Scotland is about as far away from Bath as is possible in the UK!) has always been a source of interested speculation to me. I have always wondered if a young lady was involved...

 

And today I received the icing on the cake. My mother had been in contact with Sue Spiller, a decendant of Mary Jane Russell (nee Shortman) - Isaac's older sister. She had a photo showing Mary's family - and Isaac is shown in his full Seaforth best with them!

 

We believe the picture dates to 1912, as it appears to show Mary's children up to the birth of Edwin F. Russell, but not Francis Edward Russell (their last child, not born until the following year). Isaac is in bandsman uniform, with wings, full plaid, and the musicians lyre on his upper right arm. This has raised a little more speculation for me, as Isaac also clearly has up two LSGC chevrons, which denote 5 years good conduct, when he could have barely accumulated enough with the Seaforths to qualify for one stripe (2 years), if that. So another mystery...

 

Either way, I am absolutely chuffed to bits to be able to see the face of Isaac for the first time." 

 

 

 

That’s brilliant 

9 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Correction to my suggested time frame of Charles enlisting. I have found two soldiers that served in the 2nd Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders that have surviving service records ---

8963 -- Lawrance Greenhill; 2nd Battalion; enlisted 26/10/1904

8970 -- Charles N Paton

8988 -- John McKenna; 2nd Battalion; enlisted 15/11/1904

Charles would have enlisted sometime between 26/10/1904 and 15/11/1904

That’s about the date I had worked out for him. Thanks

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

It would appear that he was a pre-war soldier. Paul Nixon's excellent website shows that soldier 8716 enlisted on the 5/2/1904 and soldier 9295 enlisted on the 27/11/1905. I would suggest that Charles would have enlisted sometime in 1905.

The 1911 England and Wales census has a 25-year old Charles Paton, born St Leonards, Midlothian, serving as a Private with the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders and stationed at Chaubattia, India.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7V4-GND

Edited 10 September by Tawhiri

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

The 1911 England and Wales census has a 25-year old Charles Paton, born St Leonards, Midlothian, serving as a Private with the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders and stationed at Chaubattia, India.

A family tree on Ancestry records 'Awarded Delhi Durbar 1911 medal'

[Allan1892]

Image courtesy of National Archives

[Tom Lang]

I'm attaching pages from my transcription of the 2nd Bn Seaforth's War Diary for October 1914.   These pages are from the start of October up to the operations at METEREN.   I am excluding the original TNA pages (courtesy TNA) for brevity.   I have included the pages from the start of the month to allow you to see the operations leading up to METEREN.

Private Paton is not named in the WD - as is no other O.R.

I have a personal interest in this Battalion as my Great Uncle L/Cpl 8669, Richard TELFER, M.M., served in the 2nd Bn.   He too was a pre-war soldier and was recalled on mobilisation.   He was discharged on 31 March, 1917, having served 13 years and 80 days with the Colours.

Hence why I have this transcription to hand.   All errors and omissions are mine.  Please let me know if you spot any errors.

Tom.

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, Stueyp said:

Pte 8970 Charles Nicolson Paton died 13th October 1914.

WFW/Fold3 pension records show his father. Charles Paton, claimed a descendent's pension - address: 4 HiIlside St, Edinburgh - the claim became DEAD 1934 rather suggesting Charles snr had died then/by then.

M

Edited 10 September by Matlock1418

[Stueyp]

Thank you