Help identifying two bayonets, possibly French Model 1866 "Chassepot" Yataghan

[Alexander Billig]

I'm new to this forum and am trying to learn more about these two bayonets, which belonged to my great grandfather Major Sidney Cedric Mathews Smith. He was with the 1/7 Middlesex Regiment, joining in 1908. I have attached several images, including close-ups of any markings I can see. These were previously identified during an estate valuation as "1868 French Chassepot Yataghan" but I wondered whether the markings can tell us anything more, and whether these would have been used by Cedric during his WWI service or were more likely to have been ceremonial. With many thanks in advance, Alex Billig.

[AndyBsk]

There should be presented spine of handle and mainly the rifle slot on end of nut, as with high possibility these could be not Chassepots but more real Remingtons M1867, one is made by Alexander Coppel Solingen , with scales logo, could be delivery to French or to Belgians the other with kings head is a Gebr.Weyersberg Solingen production with arabic digits on pommel it could be egyptian delivery, which is confirmed. On crosspiece should be serial number of rifle, oiling and cleaning lightly the parts could be then observe other marking.

Edited 9 September by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

I agree these are most likely the M1869 bayonets for the Remington Rolling Block rifle contract to Egypt. Both German made as mentioned by Alexander Coppel and Gebruder Weyersberg these are known suppliers to this contract. The Arabic numerals shown stamped on the pommel are bit of a giveaway however the shape of the mortise slot will confirm.

Cheers,  SS 

[Alexander Billig]

Thank you both very much. I will post a photo of the slot asap.

[Chasemuseum]

The Remington Rolling blocks although horribly obsolete would have still been in use with the British controlled, Egyptian military during WW1. It would have been on issue to personnel with a "police" or guard function. They also had a lot of Martini-Henrys that had been rebarrrelled and converted to .303  , see example below

 

 

 

[Alexander Billig]

Thanks Chasemuseum. Sidney Cedric Mathews Smith, whose bayonets I thought these were, was with the 1/7Mx Battalion who didn't serve in Egypt. However, his brother Cyril was with the 2/7Mx who took over 'the Citadel' in Cairo from the Australians in September 1915 before being involved in action against the Sennusi. Perhaps these were his.

Alternatively - after Sidney Cedric was invalided back in the summer of 1916 after the attack on Gommecourt Salient he was appointed to train members of the new 7th Reserve Battalion back in Purfleet then Tunbridge Wells. I wonder whether their bayonet training might have made use of such near-obsolete weaponry if a supply had found its way to England?

[Chasemuseum]

Souvenirs from Cyril's time in Egypt more likely.

[peregrinvs]

As a bayonet collector I was pondering how best to clean them. Normal acid would obviously both take off the rust and the nice patina on the brass, but would a chelating type rust remover (e.g. Evaporust) or electrolysis also de-oxidise the brass?

Edited 10 September by peregrinvs

[4thGordons]

3 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

The Remington Rolling blocks although horribly obsolete would have still been in use with the British controlled, Egyptian military during WW1. It would have been on issue to personnel with a "police" or guard function. They also had a lot of Martini-Henrys that had been rebarrrelled and converted to .303  , see example below

 

In addition to the citadel Martini's in .303 (I have an example similar to that above),  Just post WWI the Egyptian police also had shotguns using converted Martini actions, the work was done by Greener and these were chambered for a proprietary shotgun round which was only available through official channels (making the weapons unusable if they fell into the "wrong hands")

 

[Alexander Billig]

Hello AndyBsk and ShippingSteel,

Here are photos of the slots, as you suggested.

Thanks,

Alex

[AndyBsk]

Yes both are Remington M1867 models, but for Egyptian it could be called M1868. On previous block of pommel side view is the last one serialed probably 521 in arabic numerals.

https://www.militaryrifles.com/egypt/remingtonrollingblock

Edited 12 September by AndyBsk

[Alexander Billig]

Thank you everybody.

Reading the link from AndyBsk and also watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ah1CVaXnN3o I gather that some of these bayonets (and corresponding rifles) would have gone to Egypt as per original contract, but after their default some were redirected to France in the Franco-Prussian war, right?

Also, any thoughts on what peregrinvs said about cleaning? i.e. "As a bayonet collector I was pondering how best to clean them. Normal acid would obviously both take off the rust and the nice patina on the brass, but would a chelating type rust remover (e.g. Evaporust) or electrolysis also de-oxidise the brass?"

[AndyBsk]

I personally would only minor on this, clean with alcohol and firstly good oil the steel parts, then probably remove the green brass debree from pommel and dirt from rifle slot, but gently wout scratch, then after some week by working oil on the metall would be probably rust on crosspiece much softer. Blades on both looks like well preserved, was there scabbards?

Edited 12 September by AndyBsk