Regiment I.D. Please

[dhubthaigh]

A lady in Blairgowrie, Perthshire has the attached photograph. The names were from left - John Dollar, Frank Fender, John Rain and J. Carroll.

Frank Fender is 1165/265099, 6th Black Watch transferred 2nd Black Watch, (Perth Street, Blairgowrie)

J. Carroll is James Carroll is 1178/265106, 6th Black Watch transferred 2nd Black Watch, (Kinloch Place, Blairgowrie).

Uniform identification for Dollar and Rain would be appreciated.

There is a John R. Dollar, aged 14, in the 1911 census at Blairgowrie but nothing found this far for Rain.

Neither Dollar nor Rain are names that have hit my radar for being long associated with the town.

An early 1915 Roll of Honour for Blairgowrie and Rattray does not have Dollar or Rain listed.

Thnaks

Edited 4 September by dhubthaigh

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, dhubthaigh said:

A lady in Blairgowrie, Perthshire has the attached photograph. The names were from left - John Dollar, Frank Fender, John Rain and J. Carroll.

Frank Fender is 1165/265099, 6th Black Watch transferred 2nd Black Watch, (Perth Street, Blairgowrie)

J. Carroll is James Carroll is 1178/265106, 6th Black Watch transferred 2nd Black Watch, (Kinloch Place, Blairgowrie).

Uniform identification for Dollar and Rain would be appreciated.

There is a John R. Dollar, aged 14, in the 1911 census at Blairgowrie but nothing found this far for Rain.

Neither Dollar nor Rain are names that have hit my radar for being long associated with the town.

An early 1915 Roll of Honour for Blairgowrie and Rattray does not have Dollar or Rain listed.

Thnaks

Left to right:

1. Royal Artillery (I think, although badge distorted by reflection).

2. Black Watch or 9th (Glasgow Highlanders) HLI TF battalion which favoured similar dress.

3. Seaforth Highlanders.

4. Black Watch or 9th HLI TF battalion as previous.

Edited 4 September by FROGSMILE

[dhubthaigh]

Thanks again, much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

Thanks again, much appreciated.

I’m glad to help.  I’d date it around 1916. The Black Watch soldier second from left is wearing a mourning button indicating the loss of a member of his family. These were not actual black buttons but GS buttons over which some black gauze had been stretched and secured with a few stitches.

[dhubthaigh]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help.  I’d date it around 1916. The Black Watch soldier second from left is wearing a mourning button indicating the loss of a member of his family. These were not actual black buttons but GS buttons over which some black gauze had been stretched and secured with a few stitches.

I know the father of the lad wearing mourning button died on 7th October 1916 so could relate to this.....

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

I know the father of the lad wearing mourning button died on 7th October 1916 so could relate to this.....

It’s possible, I’ve never been 100% sure whether the deaths concerned had to be as a result of the war for them to be acknowledged by the button, which was never an officially endorsed thing anyway.

Edited 4 September by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help.  I’d date it around 1916. The Black Watch soldier second from left is wearing a mourning button indicating the loss of a member of his family. These were not actual black buttons but GS buttons over which some black gauze had been stretched and secured with a few stitches.

1916 is plausible but before about May 1916. That is when the Black Watch Territorial battalions were issued red hackles.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

1916 is plausible but before about May 1916. That is when the Black Watch Territorial battalions were issued red hackles.

I did consider the hackle and I think I can see the typical very short type issued at that time, in the khaki bonnet, affixed atop the badge, as it seems very blurry there in the typical way that cut feathers can look in photographs.

[Tawhiri]

The only John R Dollar birth on ScotlandsPeople is this one registered in 1896 in Ledendy and Kinloss, which is in the vicinity of Blairgowrie.

DOLLAR    JOHN ROBERT    MELDRUM    M    1896    372 / 5    Lethendy and Kinloch

I'm not finding any trace of a John Dollar serving with a branch of the Royal Artillery during WW1, although this doesn't preclude a transfer to another regiment or home service only. Unfortunately it appears that he didn't marry until 1922, so there is no chance of using that to determine if he was serving at any point during the war.

There isn't an obvious candidate for John Rain when it comes to births on ScotlandsPeople, as there are none registered in Perthshire at all. Age-wise, the most obvious candidates are the three that were born in the 1880's, noting that these three form a quite separate group from the John Rain's born before 1880 (last one was in 1864) and after 1890 (next one was in 1939). The three possibilities are:

RAIN    JOHN    URE    M    1881    644 / 2 / 72    Camlachie
RAIN    JOHN    KERR    M    1882    706 / 28    Dunbar
RAIN    JOHN    MCLAUCHLAN    M    1889    864 / 9    Dalbeattie

All of these seem to be plausible candidates based on the apparent age of the individual in the photograph. Once again, however, there is no sign of a medal index card for a John Rain serving with the Seaforth Highlanders. The last of the three candidates seems to have married a Margaret Morris in Dalbeattie in 1914, and was killed in action on 13 November 1917 while serving with the 1st/4th Battalion of the King's Own Scottish Borderers in Palestine.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/653155/j-rain/

Edited Thursday at 21:01 by Tawhiri

[dhubthaigh]

Thanks for you input @Tawhiri Your time and trouble is greatly appreciated.

Mark

[PRC]

On 04/09/2024 at 08:29, dhubthaigh said:

Neither Dollar nor Rain are names that have hit my radar for being long associated with the town.

An early 1915 Roll of Honour for Blairgowrie and Rattray does not have Dollar or Rain listed.

Don't know if this will help or not - usual standard conversion quality of image to text on the The British Newspaper Archive website.
Worth checking out the original, as it may thrown up evidence of a connection between the Dollar family and Blairgowrie without them being anything more than visitors.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

From the family listing in the 1911 Scotland census, William is the oldest brother of the aforementioned John R Dollar. It looks as though the family moved to the Blairgowrie area sometime around 1890/91, as William's birth was registered in Logie (Perth) in 1890, while the next son's birth, Daniel, was registered in Blairgowrie in 1891. As already noted, John's birth was registered in Lethendy and Kinloch in 1896, while the last child's birth, a daughter, was again registered in Blairgowrie in 1904. So even though the surname Dollar is not a name usually associated with Blairgowrie, this particular family seems to have been reasonably well-established there at the time WW1 broke out. The only other Dollar births I can find in all of Perthshire are father John and his three siblings in Logie (Perth) in the 1860's, and a daughter born presumably to one of the sons in Blairgowrie in 1922. It would appear the last member of the family to retain any connection to Blairgowrie was the daughter born in 1904, who married a Colin Christison in  Blairgowrie and Rattray in 1934, her death also being registered there in 1991.

 

[dhubthaigh]

Some further searching has established that John Rain is actually John Prain, Gowanbrae, Blairgowrie. I can't see him in the Medal Rolls. Would I be correct in thinking he may have been Home Service only?

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

Some further searching has established that John Rain is actually John Prain, Gowanbrae, Blairgowrie. I can't see him in the Medal Rolls. Would I be correct in thinking he may have been Home Service only?

He appears to be wearing the glengarry and badge of the 4th (Ross Highland) Battalion** of the Seaforth Highlanders, a Territorial Force unit broken down into the usual 1st, 2nd and 3rd Line.  Perhaps he did not go overseas with the 1st Line.  The unit had a special badge and it’s possible to discern his multi tier Territorial Force shoulder title.

** the 5th (Caithness and Sutherland) wore a similar badge, but different glengarry and kilt.

Edited Saturday at 08:37 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, dhubthaigh said:

Some further searching has established that John Rain is actually John Prain, Gowanbrae, Blairgowrie. I can't see him in the Medal Rolls. Would I be correct in thinking he may have been Home Service only?

Hopefully someone will be able to tell you when that Labour Corps service number, 494110, was issued.

In terms of near numbers on CWGC it possibly indicates it might have been issued to a man serving with one of the Agricultural Companys - but very few examples to base that on.

Enlistment date is suggestive of Derby scheme, so mobilised most likely in the first six months of 1916, which would tie in with the believed date of the picture. Fold3 have a couple of pension ledger cards which migh also have more unit details and the reason why he was no longer physically fit for military service. It should also (hopefully) give you a post service address. A basic transcription will be on Ancestry.

If it helps here's a side by side facial comparison -

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner(s)

Cheers,
Peter

Edited Saturday at 10:17 by PRC
Typo

[dhubthaigh]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

Hopefully someone will be able to tell you when that Labour Corps service number, 494110, was issued.

In terms of near numbers on CWGC it possibly indicates it might have been issued to a man serving with one of the Agricultural Companys - but very few examples to base that on.

Enlistment date is suggestive of Derby scheme, so mobilised most likely in the first six months of 1916, which would tie in with the believed date of the picture. Fold3 have a couple pf pension ledger cards which migh also have more unit details and the reason why he was no longer physically fit for military service. It should also (hopefully) give you a post service address. A basic transcription will be on Ancestry.

If it helps here's a side by side facial comparison -

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner(s)

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks for that.

No Labour, No Battle 489600 to 533000: October to February 1918. (Assuming that is October 1917).

[Tawhiri]

John Prain's enlistment date certainly helps to tie down the date that the photograph was taken to sometime between mid-December 1915 and before May 1916, based on earlier comments. It looks as though he married an Elizabeth Steele in 1915 in Rattray, although this presumably predates his enlistment in December 1915, so his marriage registration would only give details of his pre-war occupation. It looks as though there was at least one daughter born from the marriage, who's birth was registered in Clunie (Perth) in 1919. This may or may not predate his discharge in June 1919, so it may be of interest to obtain a copy of her birth registration to see if her birth occurred before he was discharged, and to see whether any details of his army service are given. I think that was the only child of the marriage born between 1915 and 1921, as John, Elizabeth, and the daughter, also called Elizabeth, are all living in the same household in Blairgowrie in the 1921 Scotland census.