charlie962 Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: still seems to imply that his parent corps was ASC, but I hope that can be confirmed somehow as it still isn’t specifically mentioned. See edit to my post on him. Mic shows Welsh Regt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) 37 minutes ago, charlie962 said: See edit to my post on him. Mic shows Welsh Regt. Fantastic! So he was indeed originally a regimental instructor! That is so revealing. It has me wondering now if there were actually no ASC cooks ## (no trade for them as there was for butchers and bakers) and that the school at Aldershot might have been run by the Army, but staffed by civilians who then trained the unit cooks of the field army. It’s also especially significant that his appointment was ‘Conductor’ (a special appointment for the most senior warrant officers) on the Indian Miscellaneous List. The Indian Army had their own Conductors for a very long time indeed (they were inherited from the HEIC), over and above and preceding those in the British Imperial service that existed in variously reorganised service support corps, before ending up in the Army Ordnance Corps and now the Royal Logistics Corps. The Indian service is an aspect only rarely mentioned. This individual might be of interest to @Muerrisch I think. ## those in e.g. formation headquarters must have come from somewhere… ** @MaureenE do you know if the Indian Miscellaneous List was a subset of the Indian Unattached List? Edited 7 September by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 17 Fitzgerald This is probably his record source Findmypast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) 12 minutes ago, charlie962 said: 17 Fitzgerald This is probably his record source Findmypast Thanks again Charlie. The reference to ‘Indian Miscellaneous List’ is clear and repeated. I think this is probably a subset of the Indian Unattached List and a direct equivalent of Garrison Staff in the Imperial Service (i.e.at home). NB. The Welsh Regiment connection (as his origin) might have some bearing on why he’s wearing a red sash. Edited 7 September by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: @MaureenE do you know if the Indian Miscellaneous List was a subset of the Indian Unattached List? Yes, it was. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September There is 2148 Sergeant John Fitzgerald who was awarded a LSGC on 1 July 1903, archive reference WO 102/17 refers. His contemporary 2149 Charles William Joslin joined the regiment on 7 December 1887, so presumably John Fitzgerald transferred in at the same time. It looks like he has a Queen's South Africa medal with 7 clasps, alongside a LSGC, in the photo. He does appear on the medal roll, but I have not looked at the roll itself. The 1st Battalion were garrisoned at Malta from 29 Aug 1889 to 14 Nov 1893. I do not think they are on the 1891 census. Image derived from that already posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 15 minutes ago, MaureenE said: Yes, it was. Maureen Thank you Maureen 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) 11 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: There is 2148 Sergeant John Fitzgerald who was awarded a LSGC on 1 July 1903, archive reference WO 102/17 refers. His contemporary 2149 Charles William Joslin joined the regiment on 7 December 1887, so presumably John Fitzgerald transferred in at the same time. It looks like he has a Queen's South Africa medal with 7 clasps, alongside a LSGC, in the photo. He does appear on the medal roll, but I have not looked at the roll itself. The 1st Battalion were garrisoned at Malta from 29 Aug 1889 to 14 Nov 1893. I do not think they are on the 1891 census. Image derived from that already posted. Presumably originally enlisted with the Welsh and trained at Maindy Barracks, Cardiff, unless he transferred in from another regiment. He must then have been the cook sergeant before being posted to the cookery school at Aldershot as an instructor, and then (as mentioned in the newspaper article) subsequently moved on to the school at Poona, where he was obliged to join the India Miscellaneous List. Edited 7 September by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September He is at Poona with the 1st Battalion, Welch Regiment, on the 1921 census, archive reference RG 12/28122. He is married and from Ireland. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F28122%2F0201%2F02 First name(s) John Last name Fitzgerald Age as transcribed 54 y 3 m Marital status Married Birth place as transcribed Ireland Rank or rating Conductor Branch of service Army Service and branch or arm of service 1/B Welsh Regt Name of ship or barracks Various Units, Poona District Archive series RG 15 Piece number 28122 Page 14 Schedule type code NM Record set 1921 Census Of England & Wales Partial transcription courtesy FindMyPast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) 23 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: He is at Poona with the 1st Battalion, Welch Regiment, on the 1921 census, archive reference RG 12/28122. He is married and from Ireland. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F28122%2F0201%2F02 First name(s) John Last name Fitzgerald Age as transcribed 54 y 3 m Marital status Married Birth place as transcribed Ireland Rank or rating Conductor Branch of service Army Service and branch or arm of service 1/B Welsh Regt Name of ship or barracks Various Units, Poona District Archive series RG 15 Piece number 28122 Page 14 Schedule type code NM Record set 1921 Census Of England & Wales Partial transcription courtesy FindMyPast As per usual he retained his parent unit, but in modern parlance the India Miscellaneous List provided the funding line (responsible for his pay and allowances). It meant he was ERE (extra regimentally employed) as far as the Welch Regiment were concerned. Of but not with. Interesting that the post was also in effect a ‘long service’ category and took him beyond the usual maximum 21-years of colour service. Edited 7 September by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September There is a death of a John Fitzgerald in Poona. He died 15 December 1921 and was buried 16 December 1921. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: As per usual he retained his parent unit, but in modern parlance the India Miscellaneous List provided the funding line for his pay. It meant he was ERE (extra regimentally employed) as far as the Welch Regiment were concerned. Of but not with. Confirmed by the image, which has the header of Army School of Cookery, Poona Major & Quartermaster James Thomas Gorman is the first person listed Image courtesy FindMyPast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 3 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Confirmed by the image, which has the header of Army School of Cookery, Poona Major & Quartermaster James Thomas Gorman is the first person listed Image courtesy FindMyPast Interesting how they’ve struck him through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September On 21 Mar 1912, admitted to Lodge Orion in the West, Lodge Number 415, located at Poona. From lodge number 1926. Profession recorded as 'Sergt Major' Source: United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921 accessed via Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 37 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Confirmed by the image, which has the header of Army School of Cookery, Poona Major & Quartermaster James Thomas Gorman is the first person listed Presumably everyone from line 4 onwards were the contemporary course passing through the school rather than permanent staff. Is there a Mrs Fitzgerald recorded at Poona on the same census - there isn't on the 1911 Census but I assume that was because the School was classed as an Indian Army facility. If a wife can be identified then the possibility of tracking Johns' units and rank via marriage and birth \ baptism records might firm up. Possibles for children at the moment from the Army Births and Baptisms records for a Fitzgerald recorded at Poona are:- William Henry Fitzgerald, 1905, father serving with the "41st Foot". (The Welsh Regiment was formed from the merged 41st and 69th Foot). And looking for births in the same source just for a Fitzgerald whose father served in the 41st Foot also brings up a John A. Fitzgerald, Aldershot, 1902. In the civil birth records for England & Wales that is likely to be John Alexander Fitzgerald, mothers' maiden name Watson, registered in the Farnham District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1902. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 27 minutes ago, PRC said: Presumably everyone from line 4 onwards were the contemporary course passing through the school rather than permanent staff. I can also identify 9692 Thomas William Craker, Sergeant, South Wales Borderers. He enlisted towards the end of 1907. I presume he would return to the 2nd Battalion upon completion of the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 4 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said: There is 2148 Sergeant John Fitzgerald who was awarded a LSGC on 1 July 1903, archive reference WO 102/17 refers. His contemporary 2149 Charles William Joslin joined the regiment on 7 December 1887, so presumably John Fitzgerald transferred in at the same time. It looks like he has a Queen's South Africa medal with 7 clasps, alongside a LSGC, in the photo. He does appear on the medal roll, but I have not looked at the roll itself. The 1st Battalion were garrisoned at Malta from 29 Aug 1889 to 14 Nov 1893. I do not think they are on the 1891 census. Image derived from that already posted. 2148 Sgt J Fitzgerald had QSA with clasps Paardeberg Dreifontein Johannesburg Diamond Hill Belfast Relief of Kimberley South Africa 1901 Total 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) 3 hours ago, PRC said: William Henry Fitzgerald, 1905, father serving with the "41st Foot". (The Welsh Regiment was formed from the merged 41st and 69th Foot). And looking for births in the same source just for a Fitzgerald whose father served in the 41st Foot also brings up a John A. Fitzgerald, Aldershot, 1902. That seems likely to be them I agree. The 41st of course became 1st Bn Welsh and, as well as it being common within battalions to use their old precedence number colloquially, it was also not unusual for the clerical personnel at higher authority (Bde, Div, Garrison, etc.) to use a similar shorthand. It was much quicker to write “41st”. Edited 7 September by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September Thanks for identifying the seven QSA clasps. Major & Quartermaster James Thomas Gorman, Connaught Rangers, appointed on 7 Dec 1920 as Commandant, Army School of Cookery, Poona No other staff listed. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284991/page/n69/mode/1up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September 9 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Thanks for identifying the seven QSA clasps. Major & Quartermaster James Thomas Gorman, Connaught Rangers, appointed on 7 Dec 1920 as Commandant, Army School of Cookery, Poona No other staff listed. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284991/page/n69/mode/1up That’s also interesting Keith, all of these key appointees are seasoned infantrymen who’ve been there and done it, fully understanding the challenges of feeding a combatant unit in the field. A far more pragmatic and sensible appointment I think than someone from Supply and Transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September (edited) I know this does not add to the erudite content of this thread but having just read it I must thank @mrfrank for posting the photos and congratulate the other contributing members for a fantastic demonstration of knowledge and research skills. I am in awe. Wonderful content - I'm very much impressed and grateful for your sharing. Thank you all. M Edited 7 September by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydo Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September A Garvey 2nd Bn. Connaught Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September 23 minutes ago, Boydo said: A Garvey 2nd Bn. Connaught Rangers. An interesting transitional shot as it shows the old woven thread shoulder title alongside the new, brass ‘CR’ shoulder title. The changeover took place 1907-1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September 2 hours ago, Boydo said: A Garvey 2nd Bn. Connaught Rangers. Hopefully picked up the right individual to make a side by side comparison. Any idea who he was was? No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September 2 hours ago, PRC said: Hopefully picked up the right individual to make a side by side comparison. Any idea who he was was? No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Cheers, Peter The three match perfectly Peter. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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