6th Class, Indian Army School of Cookery, Poona 1905

[mrfrank]

Purchased this as I'm rather partial to an old Indian Army photograph and thought it may be of some interest to forum members. I'll list those present for future searches and, as always, if anyone can assist in providing further details, then I'd be much obliged:

[mrfrank]

Not much luck with the medal rolls, but he 6th Class attendees as follows:

Back Row: 

352 Cpl James R Peach, 4th Queen's Own Hussars. MIC DoE/France 15Aug14.

L/Cpl E Fenton, 1st Royal Munster Fusiliers

L/Cpl P Williams, 1st Somerset Light Infantry

A/Br JC Neely,  64th Coy RGA

Br Mitchell, 82nd Coy RGA

6133 Cpl David Flaherty, 2nd East Lancs, DoE/France 06Nov14. Sjt Flaherty was killed in action on 12th March 1915 and is remembered on  Le Touret Memorial.

Middle Row:

L/Cpl T Forrest, 2nd A&SH

Possibly 6983 Cpl James Slater, 1st Warwickshire Regt

L/Sgt A Garvey, 2nd Connaught Rangers

L/Cpl A Harley, 2nd Royal Scots

23723 A/Br A Hardingue, 1st Mountain Battery RGA. DoE/5F(Tochi Valley) 01Dec14

Cpl S Warren, 2nd East Surrey Regt

Possibly 6592 L/Cpl William O'Connor, 1st Royal Irish Regiment

L/Sgt D Rhodes, 2nd King's Shropshire LI

Seated:

 Cpl George Coombs, 2nd Royal Fusiliers  [there is an 8503 Cpl George Coombs that was killed in action in France 21Mar18 aged 35 with the 26th Bn. Service number could indicate enlistment in 1900 so a tentative possible]

L/Cpl T Kane, 1st Gloucestershire Regt

Front:

7710 Cpl William J Maybury, 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers. 

L/Cpl S Dobson, 1st Lincolnshire Regiment

Cpl W Johnson, 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers [two possible candidates, both William 4410 & 4587]

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Absolutely delighted to see this photo as always Mr Frank given the regimental uniform details.  As per usual they reveal so much about dress during this final period before the introduction of universal khaki SD made everyone look pretty much the same apart from insignia.  In particular, I’m thrilled to see the dress of the “Instructor” and “Assistant Instructor”, who to my great surprise (I would not have guessed) are wearing the uniform of Garrison Staff (i.e. on the Indian Unattached List)**, whose uniform and insignia are only rarely seen.

I’m assuming that these instructors of catering will have come originally from the Army Service Corps, who at that time ran catering instruction for the Army with a centre of excellence school at Aldershot.  It suggests that when posted to the Indian Army School of Catering the instructors were issued with garrison staff dress.

I would be grateful if any of the genealogical detectives can look into the instructors details and confirm whether or not I have that ASC background right, as another possibility might be if they were originally regimental cooks who became so expert that they were recommended as instructors.

At that time all cooks in the combatant arms were regimental, who were trained and qualified in schools like this one in India and the one in Britain (i.e. Aldershot).  Although responsible for the school in Aldershot, the only cooks that the ASC trained for themselves were those in ASC field units, plus any that were required for formation headquarters establishments.  They also provided bakers and butchers separately.

** round (aka staff) forage caps, and scarlet frocks with Royal facings (dark blue) and insignia comprising bullion wire cyphers of the reigning Sovereign and Emperor (ERI - Edward Rex Imperator) surmounted by a crown. Similarly a bullion cypher, but without the surmounting crown, was worn on the shoulder straps.  This is very poorly understood in my experience, and there are many in the National Army Museum who would not know it.

The sergeant major (warrant officer) Instructor is wearing the final pattern of scarlet frock with breast pockets, and the assistant instructor is wearing a scarlet frock that I am unfamiliar with which has an unusual, open topped breast pocket (probably a uniquely Indian pattern). The WO is wearing a red sash, which especially intrigues me given that officially it was confined at the time to the infantry, School of Musketry, Army Gymnastics Staff, Army Pay Corps and ASC Staff Clerks.  The sergeant assistant instructor is not wearing one, despite his ‘staff’ status, so the matter is unclear.

Edited Thursday at 12:25 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

First off – a good old fashioned numbering, (with a smidgeon of tone adjustment so the numbering stands out!)

No new Ip is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

1: Corpl. Peach, J.R., 4th Queen’s Own Hussars. 352 Corporal James R. Peach, landed France 15th August 1914 (MiC). No obvious surviving service records. Medal Roll as James R.Peach.

2: L.-Cpl. Fenton, E., 1st R.Munster Fus. Wearing medal ribbon. 2 Good Conduct Stripes?

3: L-Cpl. Williams, P., 1st Som.L.Infy. Crossed Rifles over 2 Good Conduct Stripes? 1911 Cenus of England & Wales has a Corporal Patrick Williams, born Bristol, “Somerset”, aged 32 and single, who was recorded in barracks at Verne, Portland, with the 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry. However no army trade is listed for him.Possible MiC match – 466 Serjeant Patrick Williams, 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry, who first landed in France on the 21st August 1914. Subsequently honourably discharged and received the Silver War Badge. No obvious service records.

4: aBr. Neely, J.C., 64th Coy., R.G.A. There are WO97 series records for a John Charles Neely, born Portalington, Kings County, Ireland, who was aged 18 years and 6 months when he attested at Dublin on the 23rd November 1897, enlisting in the Royal Artillery for 12 years, split 7 with the colour and 5 in the reserves. Service number was 24318. 
With the split of the Regiment at the start of 1902 he became a Gunner with 66 Company, RGA. From late 1902 to late 1906 he was stationed either in Aden or India.
On the 14th April 1904 he extended his service to complete 8 years with the colours.On the 1st January 1905 he was posted to 64 Company. On the 24th June 1905 he extended again to serve all 12 years in the colours. On the 24th November 1906, still a Gunner, he was posted to 13th Company. On the 19th September 1909 he re-engaed while serving at Guernsey to complete21 years service. However he seems to have had a change of heart – on the 17th December 1909 he was given a free discharge.         
As far as courses completed are concerned he went on a stretcher bearers course and passed in February 1899, “Dep Range Finding” passed 28th May 1900, and Swimming, (August 1899). No mention of the cooking course. He served in the Aden Hinterland Expedition 1903/04 but that didn’t qualify for any medals.

5: Br. Mitchell. 82nd Coy., R.G.A. Possible from the 1911 Census of England & Wales – Sergeant Cook Richard Mitchell, aged 32, married and born Gloucestershire, Royal Artillery Staff Attached 73 Company, R.G.A., was shown in barracks at Atlock, India. Possible MiC – 1513 Serjeant Richard Mitchell, Royal Garrison Artillery. Entitled to the British War Medal only. No obvious service records.

6: Cpl. Flaherty, D., 2nd E.Lancashire Regt. Wearing 2 medal ribbons. 6133 Serjeant David Flaherty, 2nd Battalion East Lancashire Regiment, first landed in France 6th November 1914. He was killed in action 12th March 1915 and is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial. No age or additional family details. On the Anglo-Boer War Medal Roll. No obvious service records.

Information in red posted previously by @mrfrank

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 3 September by PRC
Add disclaimer

[FROGSMILE]

Great stuff Peter, thank you.  I hope some details can also be found regarding the two instructors in round forage caps.  Cookery Schools are seldom discussed much and yet they were so important to morale and there’s more to learn about where their staff were furnished from. 

Edited Wednesday at 13:25 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

7: L.-Cpl. Forrest, T., 2nd A&S Highlanders. Two good conduct stripes and a medal ribband.

8: Cpl. Slater J., 1st R. Warwick Regt. Possibly 6983 Cpl James Slater, 1st Warwickshire Regt. Army Service numbers blog shows that service number issued by the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment between the 13th February 1899 (6661) and the 5th June 1900 (7326). MiC shows 6983 James Slater, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, who was a Warrant Officer Class 1 and who qualified for the British War Medal only. He also qualified for the Meritorious Service Medal, unit shown as 1st Battalion R.W.R.posted to 7th Training Reserve Battalion, India. The card in the National Archive online catalogue is undated, but shows his rank as Company Quarter Master Sergeant (Acting Regimental Sergeant Major). On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a possible match – a Sergeant James Slater,aged 30 , married, born Smethwick, Staffordshire and serving with a Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. They were then in barracks at Budbrooke, near Warwick – which is the location of the Regimental Depot. There is no Army trade shown for him, whereas the Sergeant on the line above him is shown as a Cook.
FindMyPast are showing surviving service records for him, indexed as born Smethwick c1881 and enlisted 1899. Familysearch have them indexed as unburnt series records. Fold3 shows them as Pension Records – presumably the same is true of Ancestry.

9: L.-Sergt. Garvey, A., 2nd Connaught Rangers.

10: L.-Cpl. Harley, A., 2nd Royal Scots. Two medal ribbands and three good conduct stripes? There is a 3671 Private A. Harley, Royal Scots, on the Anglo-Boer War Medal Roll. There are surviving WO97 series records that show 3671 Alexander Harley was aged 18 years and 9 months when he attested at Edinburgh for a short service enlistement, (split 7 and 5), on the 20th May 1890 to serve in the Royal Scots Regiment. He was then 5 feet 5 and a quarter inches tall, with a fresh complexion, brown eyes and dark brown hair. He was twice appointed Lance-Corporal earlier in his army career, but each time reverted at his own request. He transferred to the Army Reserve on the 26th March 1898 but was recalled on the outbreak of the Boer War and served with the 2nd Battalion in South Africa, He was appointed Lance-Corporal on the 18th April 1902. Later that year, still in South Africa but now shown with the 1st Battalion, he re-engaged to complete 21 years service. However on the 2nd December 1903 he was recorded being awarded additional Good Conduct Pay while serving with the 2nd Battalion in India - no note of when he transferred. He was promoted Corporal on the 23rd November 1906. He was discharged on the 20th October 1909 at his own request “after 18 years service (with a view to Pension under the Pay Warrant). He qualified for the Queens and Kings South Africa medals. He is shown as passing a class for Mounted Infantry at Bangalore on the 16th March 1903, and his Corporals’ exam the following year – but no mention of the cooking course. By the time of his discharge, aged 38 years and 2 months, he was recorded as 5 feet 8 inches tall.

11: aBr. F.A. Hadingue, 1st Mountain Batty., R.G.A. MiC 23723 A/Br A Hardingue, 1st Mountain Battery RGA. DoE/5F (Tochi Valley) 01Dec14. The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 32 year old Bombardier Felix Alexander Hadingue, who was 32, born London, Middlesex, married and serving with No.1 Mountain Battery RGA. The Battery was recorded in barracks at Alexander Barracks, West Ridge, Rawal Pindi, India. Felix however was recorded as absent on the night of the Census  - he was away in Peshawar. MiC shows him as a Serjeant, subsequent Warrant Officer Class 2, Royal Garrison Artillery. It looks like he stayed in the army post-war – the MiC also quotes a seven digit service number 1400133. The MiC also shows him qualifying for the India General Service Medal  with the clasps for Afghanistan and the North West Frontier Force 1919. Service records are presumably in transition from the MoD to the National Archive. Ancestry have indexed a couple of Pension Ledger Card entries against those numbers, but Fold3 seem to have the 1400133 service number also indexed against an Albert Ernest Felix Hadingue – and shows surviving service records for that individual.

A google search turn up references to the National Army Museum holding his personal papers, donated to the Museum in 1972 and said to include 62 photographs. However the links are dead, and a search from the National Army Museum home page returns no matches for “Felix Alexander Hadingue” or “Hadingue”.

According to The Gunner Magazine a B.S.M. F.A. Hadingue was discharged on the 13th March 1921. https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3167446

The 1921 Census of England & Wales has a Felix Hadingue, born London, Surrey, c1878 recorded in a household at Camberwell.

12: Cpl. Warren, S., 2nd E. Surrey Regt.Two good conduct stripes?

13: L.-Cpl. O’Connor, W., 1st The Royal Irish Regt. A medal ribband and two conduct stripes? Possibly 6592 L/Cpl William O'Connor, 1st Royal Irish Regiment. The Army Service number blog shows the Regular Army Battalions of that Regiment would have issued service number 6592 at some point between the 11th January 1898 (6256) and the 5th April 1899 (6613).FindMyPast has service records for 6592 William THOMAS O’Connor, born Dublin c1880 and enlisting in 1899. Familysearch index them as unburnt series records. Looks like they are recorded as Pension records on Fold3, so probably how they are indexed on Ancestry.

Two MiCs.
The first as 6592 Private William T. O’Connor, covers just his 1914/15 Star, having landing in France with the Royal Irish Regiment on the 3rd January 1915. The second, as a Serjeant William O’Connor, covers his Victory Medal and British War Medal. Initially he was 6592, Royal Irish Regiment, then 9303 in the same Regiment, 10277 in the same Regiment and finally WR/286357 in the Royal Engineers.

14: L.-Sgt. Rhodes, D., 2nd K.Shropshire L.I. Crossed Rifles. Almost certainly 4322 Dennis Rhodes Shropshire Light Infantry who has a surviving WO97 series record. Dennis was serving in the Militia when he attested at Shewsbury on the 29th Dececember 1893 for a 12 year short service, (split 7 and 5), in the Shropshire Light Infantry. He was then stated to be aged 18 years and 3 months and was born Wrockwardine Wood, near Wellington, Shropshire. He was then described as 5 feet 5 and three eigths inches tall, with a fresh complexion, grey eyes and light brown hair.

While serving in India on the 30th November 1901 he was permitted to serve all twelve years in the colours. Not directly related to this thread, but there was a small proforma attached at this point of his service record and may be of wider interest – I’m sure I’ve not seen one like it before.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

He was transferred to the 2nd Battalion on the 28th January 1903 – probably on the changeover of the home \ overseas Battalions of the Regiment, so that he could continue to serve in India. (He would stay in India from 1896 to 1905).

He was appointed Lance Sergeant on the 11th January 1905. On the 24th March 1905 he was permitted to extend to complete 21 years service in the colours.

He was transferred to the 1st Battalion on the 24th October 1905 and departed for the UK. He was reappointed Lance-Sergeant on the 30th November 1905. For some unstated reason he was deprived of his Lance Stripe on the 23rd August 1906. Perhaps something had gone awry in his personal life. Now a Corporal, he was discharged at Borden Camp on the 5th September 1906 having completing his 12 years. He was still then unmarried.

The clincher comes though from the section listing “Passed classes of Instruction”. Does that read “Indian School of Cooking (?) Poona 1.10.05”?

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Ancestry possibly have this record indexed as Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Service Records, 1760-1920.

May be a complete co-incidence, but there is a MiC for 14679 Sergeant Dennis Rhodes, Shropshire Light Infantry, who first landed in France on the 27th September 1915. FindmyPast have a 1915 Medical Admission Register entry for him under that service number, but nothing indexed as to age. I also couldn’t readily spot anything in the newspaper casualty lists. The MiC shows him subsequently as 605550 Labour Corps. I’n not seeing any obvious pension ledger cards or service records.

The records that the Soldiers of Shropshire Museum have currently made available on the Ogilby Muster website doesn’t include any match for “Rhodes”.

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Pete/Bob, as always, great information. The above photo was in fact one of a pair and here's the second image featuring the class members in their chef/cook issue clothing. All retaining the same positions as per the first named image, but I imagine not as much uniform interest on this one for Bob!

Many methods employed in sporting the headwear, I particularly like Cpl Johnson's method.

Edited Wednesday at 16:52 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

Peter absolutely brilliant work, I am always amazed by your ability to extrapolate and type up so much information so quickly and your mini biographies really bring the photograph alive as they always do.  Like you I had never seen a Form of Agreement before although the concept of signing on in a legal manner when extending service is well known, so it seems likely to be a clerical variation used in India.  It would have been quite common because the phenomenon of men extending so that they could transfer to an incoming battalion, sometimes of their own regiment, but also of others, was particularly common in India, as provided that they could stay free of illness soldiers could have a far better quality of life than in the then United Kingdom.  The reverse was not so.  As regards Sgt Rhodes record of qualification courses, I at first thought it might read 1903, but clearly the course was in 1905 as made clear by the two photos.  Cpl Johnson of 2nd RWF is the only course student who brought his medals and they might assist in identifying him from the other of that name.

mrfrank, once again you’ve posted some amazing photos of historical significance because it’s a subject so rarely seen.  It has set me wondering how many Army Cookery Schools there were at that time.  No more than a handful I should think.  Like you it amused me to see the various styles with which the French chef / cooks hats were worn.  Entirely appropriate given that the original training course and concept of Army cooking was established by the famous French civilian chef, Alexis Soyer, during the Crimean War.  As regards the white cooks’ suit it’s interesting to note that the full sergeants wore their usual gold lace on scarlet backing rank stripes, and the rank and file red worsted herringbone tape, both exactly as was worn also on khaki drill at that time.

I am now just hoping that the backgrounds of the instructors can also be unearthed.  For me that will be the cherry on the cake for the reasons that I outlined earlier.

One aspect that I’m unclear about is the 6th Class reference.  I don’t think that there were six classes (attainment levels) of cook, so I’m assuming it’s either the 6th class that year, or perhaps the 6th class since the particular school at Poona was opened.

images via websearch.

Edited Thursday at 12:23 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

15: Cpl. Coombs, G., 2nd Royal Fusiliers. Medal Ribbon. [there is an 8503 Cpl George Coombs that was killed in action in France 21Mar18 aged 35 with the 26th Bn. Service number could indicate enlistment in 1900 so a tentative possible]
Alternatively there is 4889 George Coombs for whom there is a surviving WO97 series service record. George was serving in the Militia when he attested at Hounslow on the 29th December 1903. He enlisted for a short service 12 years, split 7 and 5. Born Farnham, Aldershot, he was then stated to be 19 years and 3 months old. His physical description was given as 5 feet 4 and a quarter inches tall, with a fresh complexion, blue eyes and brown hair.
After his initial training he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 22nd February 1894, transferred to the 1st Battalion on the 13th February 1896 and back to the 2nd on the 29th December 1904. Along the way he had been promoted Corporal on the 17th August 1902, opted to do the whole 12 years in the Colours, (31st October 1901) and then extended to the full 21 years, (14th March 1904?).He had been part of the Sikkim-Tibet Expedition 1904, qualifying for a gratuity and the medal with the clasp for “Gyantse”. He was appointed Lance Sergeant on the 16th February 1906. Between 1896 and 1906 he was serving in Burma and the East Indies.

He was promoted Sergeant with the 1st Battalion on the 9th January 1907, going on to be appointed Sergeant Cook on the 14th May 1907. He was discharged at his own request after 18 years on the 25th January 1912.

Among the courses he passed he qualified to “Superintend the cooking of a battalion at Poona 17/10/05.”

As the photograph is captioned Indian Army School of Cookery, I’m assuming the following three SNCO Instructors were part of that Army. Neither they or the School itself feature on the 1911 Census of England & Wales - which is to be expected.
16: Sgt. Thatcher, H.R., Assist. Instructor.
17: S.Major Fitzgerald J., Instructor. Two medals.
18: Sgt. West, T.E., Offg. Assist. Instructor. Two medals.
There is one mention of the Army School of Cookery, Poona, India on the 1911 Census. William Pike, aged 35 and from Butleigh, Somerset, was recorded as the married head of the household at 40, Butleigh, Bridgwater, Somerset. His occupation is given as Staff Sergeant, Unattached List, Staff List, India. I can only assume he and his family had been granted leave. Of the children of he and wife Ethel, the 6 year old Ethel was born Mhow, and the 4 year old Winnifred was born Indore. The latest addition to the family was under 1 month old and born Butleigh.

Turning to the Q4 1905 Indian Army List the sole match for a search for “Cookery” brought up Sergeant-Major John Fitzgerald, School of Cookery, Poona. John was born on the 30th March 1867 and had held his current rank since the 5th November 1903. He comes under the general heading “Non-Departmental Warrant Officers”  https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278922/page/n539/mode/2up?q=Cookery

John was still the Sergeant Major there in the Q1 1911 Indian Army List. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284982/page/n567/mode/2up?q=Cookery

And Q1 1915. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284987/page/n655/mode/2up?q=Cookery
Neither Thatcher or West appear to have made Warrant Officer by that stage.

John Fitzgerald.was still there in Q2 1919. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284965/page/n1407/mode/2up?q=Fitzgerald

While trying to find out more about them I came across this in the Regulations and Orders for the Army, Volume II, 1911

Image courtesy Archive org. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.108856/page/n137/mode/2up?q="School+of+Cookery+Poona"
So possibly for some of those attending it was more of a re-accreditation course, hence perhaps the lack of reference to it in the related service records.

There is a picture of the 27th Course, which took place at Poona in 1911, currently available on e-bay. Thatcher and Fitzgerald are still there, West has been replaced by a Sergeant F.C. Lewis. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175372160782

The 29th Class from 1912 has popped up on the Great War Forum before, courtesy of member @high wood. That one features Thatcher, Fitzgerald and Pike from the 1911 Census – if only he hadn’t told them his name 

West however looks like he is still wearing regimental collar badges and possibly even cap badge, so may have only recently transferred to the Indian Army.

19: L.-Cpl. Kane, T., 1st Gloster Regt. Medal ribband. On the 1st January 1897 Thomas Kane, a Baker, born St. George, Bristol, who was then aged 18 years and 9 months attested  at Bristol in the Duke of Cornwalls Light Light Infantry. He has a surviving service record in the WO97 series. He says he had previously served in the 3rd Battalion Gloster Regiment, and was released by purchase. The related WO96 series record also survives for that, showing he trained for barely a week. His DCLI service number was 5139. He was described as 5 feet 6 and a half inches tall, with a fresh complexion, grey eyes and brown hair. His distinctive mark was a scar on forehead – I’m assuming that’s a fold of hair creeping out from under his cap in the uniform picture, so I don’t think I can detect that on either image.

On the 3rd March 1897 he transferred in to the 2nd Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment. His new service number was 4991. On the 1st February 1899 he transferred to the 1st Battalion, serving with them in South Africa and qualifying for the Queens South Africa Medal. On the 23rd September 1902 he was appointed Lance-Corporal. On the 1st April 1903 he amended his service to 12 years in the colours. From late 1903 to 1908 he served again in India – prior to leaving he was married in Bristol but unfortunately his wife passed away in August 1907. He was promoted Corporal in March 1906.

He passed an Ambulance class in September 1906, but otherwise no other courses noted.

On the 13th January 1908 he reengaged at Lahore to complete 21 years colour service. He was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 22nd October 1908. He was discharged on the 9th January 1909. He married again shortly afterwards, to an Ellen Elizabeth Aynge, a widow. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there couple were to be found living at 49 Stanley Street, Easton, Bristol. The 32 year old Thomas, born Easton, Bristol, was then working as a Bricklayers Labourer while his wife Ellen Elizabeth was working as a Tailors Machinist. Living with them is “their” 18 year old son Albert Tom Aynge.

FindMyPast are showing service records for a Thomas Kane, born Bristol, Gloucestershire c1879 and commencing in 1911. However that bring nothing up in familysearch. I can’t spot them on Ancestry either but when I do a search for Kane and Bristol one of the Fold3 responses is a Great War era service record that references an Ellen Elizabeth Aynge Kane as the wife of a soldier. So potentially he may have returned to serve in the Great War.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited Wednesday at 18:00 by PRC
Tag correctly

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you again Peter. It seems pretty certain that Fitzgerald is the Warrant Officer in our photos and the Indian Unattached List is exactly where I would expect Garrison Staff type employment to be managed and administered.  Their scarlet uniforms par for the course, but the round forage caps are obsolescent and I imagine that they have either clung on to them as a marker of their status, or perhaps that type of cap was retained in Indian service longer than in Britain (where they had been replaced by the Brodrick in 1900).

If it’s possible to trace these instructors back to where they were before joining the Indian Unattached List then that seems the only way to trace the origin of their expertise.  ASC or S&TC seems the most likely, but it would be good to confirm it**.  I am sure that this thread will be of interest to @MaureenE and FIBIS too.

** However, some are likely to be ‘regimental instructors’ too, men whose experience and expertise was recognised as making them suitable for the role.  The ‘officiating instructor’ mentioned, who still wears infantry regimental dress in the two photos, seems likely to be from such a background.

Edited Wednesday at 18:45 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

** However, some are likely to be ‘regimental instructors’ too, men whose experience and expertise was recognised as making them suitable for the role.  The ‘officiating instructor’ mentioned, who still wears infantry regimental dress in the two photos, seems likely to be from such a background.

I don't know if by doing a side by side comparison of the two images of Sergeant T.E. West it's possible to pick out the salient points to identify his unit.

I believe he is wearing the QSA and the KSA. I've added an image of those into the mix.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

I've tried doing a name search on the Anglo-Boer website, but no match for a T.E. West.  However as they say themselves the list isn't complete.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, PRC said:

I don't know if by doing a side by side comparison of the two images of Sergeant T.E. West it's possible to pick out the salient points to identify his unit.

I believe he is wearing the QSA and the KSA. I've added an image of those into the mix.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

I've tried doing a name search on the Anglo-Boer website, but no match for a T.E. West.  However as they say themselves the list isn't complete.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes that’s very helpful Peter.  I’m fairly sure that he is Bedfordshire Regiment, with a Hart collar badge and star cap badge.

Edited Wednesday at 21:11 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m fairly sure that he is Bedfordshire Regiment

The Anglo Boer War Medal Roll has a 4648 Sergeant T. West, Bedfordshire Regiment. FindmyPast have indexed service records for a 4648 Thomas West, born Northampton c1875 and commencing in 1893. Paul Nixons’ website shows the Regular Army Battalions of the Bedfordshire Regiment issuing that number between the 20th March 1892 (4034) and the 26th September 1893 (4663). Familysearch have indexed them as unburnt series records.
Fold3 have pension ledger cards for him, an entry in the 1918 Bedfordshire Absent Voters Lists as Thomas Edwin West and pension records – the latter probably how his unburnt service record are indexed on Ancestry.

FindmyPast also have something showing as a service record, but it is just indexed as 4648 Bedfordshire West. It’s probably a one pager and may be a duplicate of what is in the surviving file.

Hopefully someone with subscription access can take a peak and discern whether that mans army career included a stint attached to the Indian Army.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited Wednesday at 21:39 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Anglo Boer War Medal Roll has a 4648 Sergeant T. West, Bedfordshire Regiment. FindmyPast have indexed service records for a 4648 Thomas West, born Northampton c1875 and commencing in 1893. Paul Nixons’ website shows the Regular Army Battalions of the Bedfordshire Regiment issuing that number between the 20th March 1892 (4034) and the 26th September 1893 (4663). Familysearch have indexed them as unburnt series records.
Fold3 have pension ledger cards for him, an entry in the 1918 Bedfordshire Absent Voters Lists as Thomas Edwin West and pension records – the latter probably how his unburnt service record are indexed on Ancestry.

FindmyPast also have something showing as a service record, but it is just indexed as 4648 Bedfordshire West. It’s probably a one pager and may be a duplicate of what is in the surviving file.

Hopefully someone with subscription access can take a peak and discern whether that mans army career included a stint attached to the Indian Army.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Excellent stuff Peter!  His service record should show his period as a Cook Sergeant in a battalion of his regiment in theory, assuming that it has not been too stringently weeded.  I can’t see any other reason why he would have been appointed as an ‘officiating instructor’ otherwise, although it’s an unusually worded job description and not one that I’ve seen before.  The job descriptions of the other two instructors are the more usual and traditional.

Edited Wednesday at 21:49 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

I have previously heard of the Indian Army School of Cookery without knowing any details.  However I have always been a bit puzzled, as I feel in the social conditions applying at that period for Europeans in India, it is most unlikely that British Army soldiers  in garrisons/cantonments did actual cooking.  I think all the cooking would have been done by Indian servants/followers, in line with the practice in  other British households in India.

I think therefore it is most likely the course in India was more a course in how to supervise others in Cookery, perhaps in modern terms the management of a restaurant kitchen. Possibly with an emphasis on Menus, ordering etc. One could speculate that this also included decisions about  how much beer and other alcohol to order, (although the actual procurement may have been done by others), decisions about suitable storage etc

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, MaureenE said:

I have previously heard of the Indian Army School of Cookery without knowing any details.  However I have always been a bit puzzled, as I feel in the social conditions applying at that period for Europeans in India, it is most unlikely that British Army soldiers  in garrisons/cantonments did actual cooking.  I think all the cooking would have been done by Indian servants/followers, in line with the practice in  other British households in India.

I think therefore it is most likely the course in India was more a course in how to supervise others in Cookery, perhaps in modern terms the management of a restaurant kitchen. Possibly with an emphasis on Menus, ordering etc. One could speculate that this also included decisions about  how much beer and other alcohol to order, (although the actual procurement may have been done by others), decisions about suitable storage etc

Maureen

I think you make a good point Maureen and to a degree I concur with you that much of the practical slaving over stoves was mostly carried out by native employees in the kitchens.  I’m not sure if in India the practice was a single battalion kitchen, but I doubt that and it seems more likely to have been as per the policy in Britain (the ‘home service’ battalion), where the policy was still very firmly individual company kitchens with the men consuming their meals in barrack rooms at a central trestle table and benches.

In India of course the food would have been brought by native servants (kitchen orderlies), whereas in Britain ‘duty men’ collected them from the individual company kitchens and dished out in the rooms.  There was much use of dixies (camp kettles) and meals were fairly simple meat and potatoes type affairs, as British soldiers on the home establishment were apparently not partial to savoury rice at the time, although sweet rice pudding was a staple.  Battalions in India were different and apparently largely learned to enjoy curried meals.

However, these courses at schools of the Poona type were along with other such courses where a skill was learned, much valued by the NCOs as adding qualifications that might aid with their promotion.

I agree that the syllabus likely majored on kitchen management and making best use of Ordnance rations that at the time included dry, fresh, and on-the-hoof provisioning.  There was special focus on menus, many of which had been laid down by Alexis Soyer and were broken down into details with X ingredients required for X men & etcetera.  Another big part of the curriculum was the construction of a wide variety of improvised field ovens.

All these details were laid down in a manual of military cooking that had changed little since Soyer wrote the first iteration.  Training was conducted on the basis of operating and fighting in any part of the world and not just India, so there would have been a degree of practical cooking instruction too.  I’ve no doubt about that.

images via websearch and IWM.

 

Edited Thursday at 12:18 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

5 hours ago, MaureenE said:

I think therefore it is most likely the course in India was more a course in how to supervise others in Cookery, perhaps in modern terms the management of a restaurant kitchen. Possibly with an emphasis on Menus, ordering etc. One could speculate that this also included decisions about  how much beer and other alcohol to order, (although the actual procurement may have been done by others), decisions about suitable storage etc

I too have been pondering where the courses were pitched as I’ve been researching the names. It seemed unlikely they were going there simply to increase their existing culinary skills, and so considered they had gone there mainly to learn how to manage what was effectively an industrial kitchen both in barracks and in the field – layout and equipment, staff management, stock and stores management, menu planning and rudimentary budgeting. Those men whose records I could see all appeared to have their level 2 Army Certificate of Education, and those at Corporal and Sergeant in the main had passed the relevant competency examination.

So literacy and numeracy skills were there.

And with Corporal George Coombs, (no.15), being passed as qualified to “Superintend the cooking of a battalion” that seemed to be confirmation.

However looking at the handwriting and vocabulary standard of some of the men filling out their part of the discharge document, you could be forgiven for a moment for doubting the actual level of literacy.

And the one post-discharge man I did find on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was working as a bricklayers labourer. I don’t know if that individual actually passed the course, but presumably there had to be some vetting as to suitability to be put into such a junior management role, particularly if those Armys regs applied in 1905 and that the applicants had to have extended or re-engage before they would be considered. Of course it could be that having extended \ re-engaged anyway the Army was now trying to find a position to fit in them, regardless of any great ability.  I also found it noteworthy that so many of this group, having opted to extend to 21 years of colour service, didn't actually make it that far.

So perhaps a mix of the two – some there to learn kitchen management, others to increase their culinary skills for mass production levels and maybe take the sous-chef role of running a small team within that kitchen dedicated to one area of the menu.

@FROGSMILE - I will be adding something later about number 21, Lance Corporal S. Dobson, 1st Lincolnshire Regiment, but this seems an appropriate point to ask a question about his appearance on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. His rank was then recorded as Sergeant Master Cook, serving in the same Regiment.
Was there formally such a role in the British Army?
If so, any idea what the duties comprised of - hoping it might shed some light on the nature of this course at Poona.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

His rank was then recorded as Sergeant Master Cook, serving in the same Regiment.
Was there formally such a role in the British Army?
If so, any idea what the duties comprised of - hoping it might shed some light on the nature of this course at Poona.

Yes there was such an appointment, but he didn’t originally appear on the official establishment table and was furnished in the same way as e.g. the Provost sergeant, by taking a substantive sergeant from one of the service companies (generally a volunteer for obvious reasons) and back filling his vacant slot with a lance sergeant, who was then himself backfilled by a paid lance corporal.  Several such posts were created in that way during the 1860s following lessons from the Crimean War.

As such the ‘Master Cook’ became a member of the battalion staff (sergeants).  His role was to manage the battalion’s “feeding” (the term actually used) and he worked in conjunction with the QM and RQMS to ensure efficient use of government (Ordnance chain supplied) rations.

He had to attend a course in a school like Aldershot or Poona and be certificated as qualified.  He had to be able to cook.  Not least because he was in turn supervising the company cooks and kitchen/cook orderlies.  It was still the norm to be fed at company level as explained previously.

Many army cookery schools were set up during WW1 to cope with the expansion of the Army and there’s a good account of one here: http://portsladehistory.blogspot.com/2015/02/army-cookery-in-great-war.html?m=1

images via websearch.

Edited Thursday at 10:22 by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

If anyone is interested the Manual referred to by Frogsmile is available here Manual of military cooking [electronic resource] : Great Britain. Army School of Cookery : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive 

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, PRC said:

I will be adding something later about number 21, Lance Corporal S. Dobson, 1st Lincolnshire Regiment

Peter, when you do that is there any way that you can dig deeper into the service histories of Sergeant Major Fitzgerald and Sergeant Thatcher as regards their original parent corps before joining the Indian Unattached List?  It might be a tall order but I ask this to try and confirm where the Poona school obtained their instructional staff from and confirm an association with the ASC that ran the original school at Aldershot.

[PRC]

20: Copl. Maybury W., 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers. Crown over crossed rifles on sleeve. 7710 Cpl William J Maybury, 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers. MiC has him as a Serjeant in the Royal Scots Fusiliers, followed by 380554 Serjeant, Labour Corps.Entitlement was the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, so didn’t serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. He was honourably discharged before the end of the conflict, receiving the Silver War Badge.

Under that service number and regiment FindMyPast are showing two sets of service records, both for a William John Maybury, born Birmingham. One set date to 1914 and have him born c1875. The other set date to 1917 and have him born c1878.
Familysearch are showing a burnt series set of records dating from 1894 for 4480 Royal Scots Fusiliers,
The 1917 record has him resident Middlesex and serving as 7710 Royal Scots Fusiliers. This also comes from the burnt series of records.

21: L.-Cpl. Dobson S., 1st Lincoln Regt. Crown over crossed rifles on sleeve. The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a Sergeant Master Cook Sydney Dobson serving with the 1st Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment who were then in barracks at Aden. Sydney, a married man, aged 30, was originally from Grimsby, Lincolnshire. No obvious MiC or service record on FMP.

22. Cpl. Johnson W., 2nd Welsh Fusiliers. [two possible candidates, both William 4410 & 4587]. Crossed Rifles. Two Medals – probably QSA and KSA. The Anglo-Boer war website does not have the medal roll for the Royal Welsh Fusiliers transcribed and included in their database of names. A basic transcription of the regimental roll available on Genes Reunited shows neither 4410 or 4587.
It does have a 2802 Private W. Johnson and a 3234 Lance Corporal W. Johnson.
But there is no obvious MiC or service papers for 2802 W. Johnson or 3234 W. Johnson.

The MiC for 4410 William Johnson shows him as a Private when he first landed in a Theatre of War, (on or after the 1st January 1916). He was subsequently service number 55355 in the same Regiment. 55355 Private William Johnson died on the 18th February 1917 while serving with the 14th Battalion in Belgium at the age of 34. He has no known grave and is remembered on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial. No obvious service record.

The MiC for 4587 William Johnson shows him as a Private when he first landed in a Theatre of War, (on or after the 1st January 1916). He was subsequently service number 39050 in the South Wales Borderers. No obvious service record.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 37 year old Sergeant William Johnson, married and born Solihull, Warwickshire, who was recorded at the Roberts Barracks, Quetta, India. It’s difficult to make out from the Census schedule which unit he was serving with. Could be a co-incidence but there is an unburnt series record dated to 1914 by familysearch for a 41 year old William Johnson, born Solihull, Warwickshire. He may have been re-enlisting in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers as his service number is 15247. FindMyPast just have them as service records.

Fold3 are just showing a pension card, indexed with a service number 4/36398 as well as 15247.
That additional service number doesn’t appear to be bringing up anything more on FindMyPast. For a non-subscriber Ancestry is getting harder and harder to search for service records and pension records.

So lots of possibilities but no smoking gun.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 37 year old Sergeant William Johnson, married and born Solihull, Warwickshire, who was recorded at the Roberts Barracks, Quetta, India.

Brilliant stuff Peter, it’s amazing what you’ve been able to find on all these men.

 I believe there’s a very good chance that you have the right Johnson with this man above.  The 2nd RWF of that period was renowned for having a substantial number of men from Warwickshire, so much so that it gained the nickname at the time as ‘The Birmingham Fusiliers‘.  His attendance on the course would have probably been seen as contributing towards qualifying him for promotion to sergeant providing that he was in receipt of a 2nd Class Army Certificate of Education, so from 1905 to 1911 is about right.

Edited Friday at 22:16 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Indian Daily News 12/11/1903 courtesy Findmypast 

[charlie962]

On 04/09/2024 at 19:58, PRC said:

17: S.Major Fitzgerald J., Instructor

Civil Military Gazette 22/12/1903 Courtesy Findmypast 

 

Courtesy Ancestry

Edited Saturday at 06:38 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Civil Military Gazette 22/12/1903 Courtesy Findmypast 

Thank you Charlie, that is really helpful, detailed information that makes very clear the role and function of the cook sergeants and also that one each was to be established at the various stations mentioned, which would seemingly make them garrison staff of the Indian Unattached List too.  It also confirms their role training unit cooks to oversee native cooks in the hot weather season on the plains, but that the British cooks must also be taught to cook for themselves.  The article from the Indian Daily News is perfect to accompany MrFrank’s superb photograph and bring context.

Significant too that Fitzgerald was appointed from the cookery school in Aldershot to go to India and given how long he was there, as noted by Peter, it seems to have made his career.  It still appears to imply that his parent corps was ASC, but I hope that can be confirmed somehow as it still isn’t specifically mentioned.

 

Edited Saturday at 06:40 by FROGSMILE