Area Ethe and Virton in 1914

[Kevdan]

Hello, does anyone perhaps have some more information about the fighting, destruction and executions in the Ethe and Virton area? Maps photos and other information.

[lostinspace]

Hello Kevdan and welcome to the forum.

Just noticed your message and can round up some information for you. I live in the U.S. but the early Ardennes battles have always been of interest to me. Are you looking for French or English resources? Naturally there is much more information on Virton in French than English, however, during the early 1930s the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College students wrote quite a number of thesis and translated several French and German articles on the Ardennes battles which may be of interest. 

Dave 

[Kevdan]

I like some information about the french and germans in 1914. Or if there are also conflicts later in the war.

Thanks,

[lostinspace]

Kevdan,

I should tell you that I am not an expert on either the French or German armies, I do know that there are experts on this forum that most certainly would have more information on the German operations during the August battles than I do, hopefully, they will see this thread and respond to you. I can not speak, read or write in French, however with the help of Google Translate and Gallica I have gathered some information on the French participation in the Ardennes battles. Here https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6274616s is a link to the first volume of the French official history which you can download and use for your own research (I believe all the histories are available). There are also volumes of dispatches, maps, orders of battle etc. that cover all French operations during the battles of August 1914.
I can also recommend several books in English that might be of interest - "The Battle of the Frontiers, Ardennes 1914" by Terence Zuber, Tempus (2007), which covers the German participation (almost exclusively). And, "Lost Opportunity, the Battle of the Ardennes, 22 August, 1914" by Simon House, Helion & Company, (2017), the author believes that the French had several opportunities that could have changed the course of the battle in their favor.
If you are interested I can give you links to the thesis at the Command & General Staff College.

Dave

edit: I forgot to include "Death in the Ardennes, 22nd August 1914, France's Deadliest Day" by Jean-Michel Steg, first published in French, Editions Fayard (2013), then by the University of Buckingham Press in English (2021?).

Edited 24 August by lostinspace

[healdav]

On 19/08/2024 at 14:01, Kevdan said:

Hello, does anyone perhaps have some more information about the fighting, destruction and executions in the Ethe and Virton area? Maps photos and other information.

There is someone who is or was a member of the forum and who is an expert on the area as his wife comes from there.

I've been through there many times, but I'm not a expert in any way. If you google the places there is quite a lot of inf and similar.o and you can also pick up stuff by googling Battle of the Ardennes or 22 August 1914 and similar.

[lostinspace]

healdav, 

Was that Steve Marsdin?

 

edit: spelling

Edited 24 August by lostinspace

[healdav]

16 hours ago, lostinspace said:

healdav, 

Was that Steve Marsdin?

 

edit: spelling

Yes.

[charlie2]

Volume 1 of the German official history shows on Map 3 the towns were taken by the 9th and 10th Divisions of the 5th Army. A broad overview of the actions can be read from page 317 on.

https://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/image/AC01831210/1/LOG_0003/

Charlie

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks to the 2 Daves for the prompt: I don’t visit the forum as much as I used to. Regarding books I would endorse the earlier recommendations, apart from Steg who was really just cashing in on the centenary and added nothing new to the debate (Zuber too has to be read with caution as he takes everything from the German side “as read”, and his use of French sources is less extensive. If you search the GWF hard enough, he was a member briefly and opinionated on the Ardennes book)

IMO the best work is Jean-Claude Delhez’ 2 volume work, in French:

Le jour de deuil de l'armée française, Volume 1 & 2, (sadly out of print but a much condensed version is available.
Le Bataille des Frontières, Joffre attaque au centre, 22-26 août 18914, Jean-Claude Delhez.

He and Simon House came to very similar conclusions. One of the few faults with Delhez’ books is the poor maps, House’s book also includes a separate map book with over 60 maps. My recommendation would be to familiarise yourself with both authors’ works.

Two of the best FWW memoirs (according to Norton-Cru) cover Ethe and both have been translated from French into English
From Marne to Verdun, The War Diary of Captain Charles Delvert, 101st Infantry 1914-1916, Charles Delvert, translated by Ian Sumner
My ‘75, Paul Lintier

With a brief history and guide to the locations:
Traces et Mémoire, Guide illustre 1914-1918, available free from the Belgian Province of Luxembourg tourist office.

I recently did a podcast for the Great War Group on 22/8/14. It was limited to 45 minutes so was more of a general overview although I did try and give an insight into the Colonial Corps’ performance at Neufchateau and Rossignol (being honest it was a bit rushed 😇). It should be available on their YouTube channel soon.

I hope this helps.

PS I’ve attached an example of Simon House’s maps
 

 

[Kevdan]

Thanks for the info and the map.

[Kevdan]

Hello. Yesterday I was searching by car for a new search spot. Found a few spots but it was 33 degrees and my daughter was sleeping in the car. So I saved the spots to go to later with the metal detector. This time in the vicinity of Robelmont in the direction of the French war cemetery. I have permission from the owner. In the bushes around the fields I could see a lot of shell hits and trenches. So interesting enough! 

I think I'm going to try a piece tonight or tomorrow. I'll show you the finds.

 

[healdav]

Don't use a detector or even have on in the car  near a battlefield. Its 6 months and/or 10,000 fine.

And the do apply it, even to the British.

[AOK4]

31 minutes ago, healdav said:

Don't use a detector or even have on in the car  near a battlefield. Its 6 months and/or 10,000 fine.

And the do apply it, even to the British.

I don't know whether that is valid in Wallonia. In Flanders you need a permit and you have to report relevant findings.

Jan

[healdav]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

I don't know whether that is valid in Wallonia. In Flanders you need a permit and you have to report relevant findings.

Jan

Sorry. I forgot. I was talking France.

[Kevdan]

In Belgium wallonie I need a permit and I have one because my mother works for the municipality. So I get to search all over the municipality. I just have to indicate when and what I found.

In France, the law is different. So I'm not allowed to search there, nor magnet fishing. But what I do do a lot is walk through the shallow rivers and then look with my eyes to see if you see something nice.

In the vicinity of the battlefield, even picking up barbed wire, for example, is already prohibited. And you shouldn't have a metal detector in your car either, even when you're not using it. They then confiscate it and you get a fine or you have to go to court.

And that's why I look the most in the Virton area.

I also know almost all the police officers in Virton and they know me too. Because as a small child I searched in the area and occasionally had to call the police for a grenade or something.

And I almost always get permission from the farmer. As long as you speak French well and can speak well, you can do it haha

Edited yesterday at 10:02 by Kevdan