Sword Identification

[Louiswenley]

Hi all. Apologies if this is being posted in completely the wrong place. 

I am in possession of what I believe is a naval sword, if anyone could provide any additional information that would be great. The maker is Alkit LTD. 
 

My grandfather gifted me this sword before he passed away. His name was Peter Garwood. It was a long time ago now, but I believe he said the ‘G De P’ marking was something along the lines of Geoffrey Du Pleusiss, but could be wrong. 
 

any information is appreciated! As the sheathe is leather, I wanted to see if anyone had any tips on how to store this piece of history too?

 

[peregrinvs]

I believe that’s a Royal Navy 1856 Pattern Midshipman’s Dirk.

[Louiswenley]

55 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

I believe that’s a Royal Navy 1856 Pattern Midshipman’s Dirk.

Looks like you’re right. Wow. Didn’t realise it’s age!

[DavidOwen]

Any relatives who may have served in the Navy?

(Asking because I found a Percy Garwood as an officer in ww1)

[JMB1943]

Louis,

The blade seems to be marked with the "GR" Royal Cypher, so dates within the period about 1910 - 1954 to cover George V & VI.

Years of operation of ALKIT Ltd in Cambridge Circus would let you narrow the date range. 

BLADE: Use finest grade (0000) bronze wool with a light oil (3-in-1) to remove corrosion.

Coat with a museum-grade wax (Renaissance Wax) to preserve. Beware that even finger-prints, on unprotected steel, may cause damage in the long-term!!

HILT: This composed of a wooden core overlaid with shagreen (ray or shark skin) bound with brass/bronze wire and a brass/bronze lion head and cross-guard.

Use an old toothbrush/toothpick moistened to clean out corrosion and old Brasso from the recesses; do not apply water to the shagreen.

EDIT: Again, use Ren Wax on the hilt.

SCABBARD: DO NOT apply leather cleaners/conditioners/softeners. Do NOT polish any metal fittings with e.g. Brasso, leave the surface oxidation (the patina) intact!

Use only Renaissance Wax on the scabbard.

You have a very nice pairing there......

Regards,

JMB

Edited 15 August by JMB1943
Add info.

[Louiswenley]

16 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Any relatives who may have served in the Navy?

(Asking because I found a Percy Garwood as an officer in ww1)

He was my dad’s step dad, I checked with him but he wasn’t sure. I know Peter served in the Kings African Rifles though. 

Edited 16 August by Louiswenley

[Louiswenley]

11 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Louis,

The blade seems to be marked with the "GR" Royal Cypher, so dates within the period about 1910 - 1954 to cover George V & VI.

Years of operation of ALKIT Ltd in Cambridge Circus would let you narrow the date range. 

BLADE: Use finest grade (0000) bronze wool with a light oil (3-in-1) to remove corrosion.

Coat with a museum-grade wax (Renaissance Wax) to preserve. Beware that even finger-prints, on unprotected steel, may cause damage in the long-term!!

HILT: This composed of a wooden core overlaid with shagreen (ray or shark skin) bound with brass/bronze wire and a brass/bronze lion head and cross-guard.

Use an old toothbrush/toothpick moistened to clean out corrosion and old Brasso from the recesses; do not apply water to the shagreen.

EDIT: Again, use Ren Wax on the hilt.

SCABBARD: DO NOT apply leather cleaners/conditioners/softeners. Do NOT polish any metal fittings with e.g. Brasso, leave the surface oxidation (the patina) intact!

Use only Renaissance Wax on the scabbard.

You have a very nice pairing there......

Regards,

JMB

Thank you very much! I appreciate that! 
 

for storage, do you have any suggestions?

[JMB1943]

Louis,

For storage, don’t leave the scabbard in direct sunlight.

In general, you want a stable humidity (say 50% + or - 10) and temperature.

I live in Florida, and so the AC runs about 9 months of the year, which keeps the humidity down.

Dust attracts moisture, apparently, so my bayonet are all stored in their scabbards in a drawer.

If that dirk/scabbard were mine, I would leave the blade in the scabbard and display anywhere away from the windows.

Please show us some photos after the cleaning.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: If I were still living in England, I would check the blade for rust 2-3 times a year.

Insread of fine bronze wool, can use a fine grade of plastic/synthetic pot-scrubber for cleaning the blade.

 

 

Edited 16 August by JMB1943
Add info

[Louiswenley]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Louis,

For storage, don’t leave the scabbard in direct sunlight.

In general, you want a stable humidity (say 50% + or - 10) and temperature.

I live in Florida, and so the AC runs about 9 months of the year, which keeps the humidity down.

Dust attracts moisture, apparently, so my bayonet are all stored in their scabbards in a drawer.

If that dirk/scabbard were mine, I would leave the blade in the scabbard and display anywhere away from the windows.

Please show us some photos after the cleaning.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: If I were still living in England, I would check the blade for rust 2-3 times a year.

Insread of fine bronze wool, can use a fine grade of plastic/synthetic pot-scrubber for cleaning the blade.

 

 

Thank you very much. I think I will box it up after I have cleaned it and put it in a drawer in a room with stable humidity. 
 

I will definitely send some pictures after the restoration is complete. Fine bronze wool doesn’t seem to be readily available here. Would the fine grade steel wool below be ok? These are the products I am planning on buying -

https://www.screwfix.com/p/3-in-one-oil-drip-can-200ml/59982?tc=UA5&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw8fu1BhBsEiwAwDrsjJ8DgBQysDCF7lmNHSUq8RrdTeiBw7W2MdkmMMrJ9rT00wpGScAw5BoCaE8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/liberon-paint-varnish-grade-0000-ultra-fine-steel-wool-100g/5196F?tc=FG7&ds_rl=1241687&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1247848&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPx--62JRbrTvPNLjORu3uYb1&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1247848&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI67Kq_tr5hwMVdIlQBh2DPzlSEAQYASABEgJlUvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/site-gloves-white-blue-large/328rr

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235026615440?_nkw=Renaissance+Wax&itmmeta=01J5DRGTCK88CKW3PSM2RKJWMF&hash=item36b8ad8c90:g:hQwAAOSw~qNmhWBY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKlCtFLmsJ2Fe2RJ6abVVqIUfBTwhDw%2FEDJ5Msp%2FMI5iVAGUly0YgO3hCej9nWOX%2B5ats7accGFbFgqH6sY2OdJxmg4L0zQQVQ15Rl44JLY%2FJBlA3tqXacutwqZIQV6FtCcpc%2B6uh%2FAMpw6eQiiR5QmdGZp4CViH55ewZnAd5pj4I60fiB5zwUDyrYXmynmachdwsp5udC1jq2Ly%2FIMGyGKPcvBb5HgsYn%2BcKPMULuovwVv0ffE6WoQmGSkMovyerQI%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7Smw7irZA

 

https://www.ukofficedirect.co.uk//product/brasso-metal-polish-liquid-175ml-3259891/kgz219?AFF=LI10590KGZ219&s_tg=pla-2259873038097&utm_marin=sbWPi8MYU_dc|pcrid|669257272052|pkw||pmt||grp||product|KGZ219|slid||pgrid|150636265805|ptaid|pla-2259873038097&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw8fu1BhBsEiwAwDrsjEn3WgX2DaiiNwcI_6tlyh6Ikg1n7k-3-OIOHUtj-Quvk0nnVyBFJxoC3QIQAvD_BwE

Ps. May not be of interest, but I have the remnants of (what I think) is a WW1 Mauser from Trones Wood too. My great grand father fought there. I fear it may be too rusted and fragile to restore. 

[DavidOwen]

8 hours ago, Louiswenley said:

He was my dad’s step dad, I checked with him but he wasn’t sure. I know Peter served in the Kings African Rifles though. 

If he was related might the item have been his?

If you are interested his record is here British Royal Naval Reserve 1899-1930 Image | findmypast.co.uk

[JMB1943]

Louis,

Fine steel wool——is  big NO NO, will scratch steel and brass and possibly blur the etching on the blade!

This why I specified non-scratching toothbrush/ or kitchen pad, moisten with rubbing alcohol.

Brasso——is big NO NO, will remove the aged look of the metal fittings and seriously devalue as a collectible!

You want to conserve the items for future generations, rather than restore to as-new condition.

Others——OK

Don’t be aggressive with the cleaning, rub lightly and don’t hurry it.

Good Luck,

JMB

PS It certainly is of interest, so please post photos of your relic Mauser ( in a separate thread) for the experts, and me, to look at: Be advised that it may still contain live rounds!!

[Louiswenley]

3 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Louis,

Fine steel wool——is  big NO NO, will scratch steel and brass and possibly blur the etching on the blade!

This why I specified non-scratching toothbrush/ or kitchen pad, moisten with rubbing alcohol.

Brasso——is big NO NO, will remove the aged look of the metal fittings and seriously devalue as a collectible!

You want to conserve the items for future generations, rather than restore to as-new condition.

Others——OK

Don’t be aggressive with the cleaning, rub lightly and don’t hurry it.

Good Luck,

JMB

PS It certainly is of interest, so please post photos of your relic Mauser ( in a separate thread) for the experts, and me, to look at: Be advised that it may still contain live rounds!!

I’m glad I checked! And yes, I don’t want to shine it up to the point it looks like a replica, very good point. To recap, I will use a toothbrush and a 3-in-1 oil to remove corrosion on the blade. I will then coat with renaissance wax. 
 

The hilt, I will use a toothpick or toothbrush moistened with rubbing alcohol to try and remove the corrosion and brasso from the recesses. I will the apply renaissance wax to this and the scabbard. 
 

thank you for your help. I do appreciate it. 
 

Will dig out the remains of the rifle next week!

 

thanks!

[JMB1943]

@Louiswenley,

Excellent on all counts...

Regards,

JMB

 

[JMB1943]

@Louiswenley,

For a possible identification of G. de P. see,

”Midshipman’s Dirk” in the Sailors and navies sub-forum.

Regards,

JMB

[Louiswenley]

On 20/08/2024 at 13:27, JMB1943 said:

@Louiswenley,

For a possible identification of G. de P. see,

”Midshipman’s Dirk” in the Sailors and navies sub-forum.

Regards,

JMB

Thanks! Will do so now. Spent a few hours cleaning this afternoon. Will update shortly.  

[Louiswenley]

On 20/08/2024 at 13:27, JMB1943 said:

@Louiswenley,

For a possible identification of G. de P. see,

”Midshipman’s Dirk” in the Sailors and navies sub-forum.

Regards,

JMB

Looks like you may have something with Lt. Geoffrey Louis de Pury! Great find and really interesting. Thank you. 
 

So, as I said, spent a few hours on it today. The toothbrush and rubbing alcohol on the brass worked a treat, was very easy. 
The oil and brush on the blade was a lot more difficult, felt like I was getting nowhere, but looking at my originally pictures on this thread, I certainly have made progress! Without the fine wool, how much further do you think I can get? 

Just now, Louiswenley said:

Looks like you may have something with Lt. Geoffrey Louis de Pury! Great find and really interesting. Thank you. 
 

So, as I said, spent a few hours on it today. The toothbrush and rubbing alcohol on the brass worked a treat, was very easy. 
The oil and brush on the blade was a lot more difficult, felt like I was getting nowhere, but looking at my originally pictures on this thread, I certainly have made progress! Without the fine wool, how much further do you think I can get? 

More pics 

[JMB1943]

Excellent job on the scabbard, it has come out really well!

I have a couple of comments on the blade,

1) it is already much better-looking, and you can clearly see that it is the G v R cypher, as it should be for the years of Geoffrey de Pury’s service,

and 

2) you may well have reached the point where there is no more that you can do, in terms of removing those black stains/ pitting on the blade; try with oil and fine, non-metallic pot scrubber and then call it quits. The etching is too susceptible to steel wool, so a coat of wax to finish both the blade and scabbard and you are done.

Regards,

JMB

PS Don’t forget photos of the relic Mauser when you get the chance……

[Louiswenley]

31 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Excellent job on the scabbard, it has come out really well!

I have a couple of comments on the blade,

1) it is already much better-looking, and you can clearly see that it is the G v R cypher, as it should be for the years of Geoffrey de Pury’s service,

and 

2) you may well have reached the point where there is no more that you can do, in terms of removing those black stains/ pitting on the blade; try with oil and fine, non-metallic pot scrubber and then call it quits. The etching is too susceptible to steel wool, so a coat of wax to finish both the blade and scabbard and you are done.

Regards,

JMB

PS Don’t forget photos of the relic Mauser when you get the chance……

Thank you for your help! I’ll give the blade one more attempt tomorrow but won’t push it too far! Will then add a coat of ren wax for preservation.

Will also find the Mauser tomorrow, but I must warn, it has seen far better days!

[DisasterDog]

8 hours ago, Louiswenley said:

Without the fine wool, how much further do you think I can get? 

I think you’re about there, I agree with JMB.  It looks good!

[Louiswenley]

2 hours ago, DisasterDog said:

I think you’re about there, I agree with JMB.  It looks good!

Thank you very much! Glad I checked before I spent hours fighting a lost cause!

[Louiswenley]

20 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Excellent job on the scabbard, it has come out really well!

I have a couple of comments on the blade,

1) it is already much better-looking, and you can clearly see that it is the G v R cypher, as it should be for the years of Geoffrey de Pury’s service,

and 

2) you may well have reached the point where there is no more that you can do, in terms of removing those black stains/ pitting on the blade; try with oil and fine, non-metallic pot scrubber and then call it quits. The etching is too susceptible to steel wool, so a coat of wax to finish both the blade and scabbard and you are done.

Regards,

JMB

PS Don’t forget photos of the relic Mauser when you get the chance……

So, as promised, here’s the other bits. I only guessed it’s a WW1 Mauser based on the shape, but as you’ve probably guessed by now I’m no expert. I know it was buried for a long time, and is now quite brittle. It was found in Trones Wood (grandad fought there, cpt Wenley, Essex). The shell I expect is pretty standard. Could you recommend a way of cleaning or preserving either of these? Or are they too far gone? I was going to look into electrolysis for the shell. 
 

The last item is what I believe to be a WW1 medics sterilising kit. I could be wrong though. I inherited this from my grandfather. 

More pics

[peregrinvs]

Yes it looks like the rifle is a Mauser Gewehr 98 - the basic WWI German infantry weapon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_98
 

The shell is probably an 18 Pounder shrapnel shell casing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_18-pounder_gun
 

There are various threads on here regarding rust removal. With that level of rust, I would probably use electrolysis to do the heavy lifting and then give it a final tidy up with citric acid. However, they don’t need cleaning / preserving per se if you keep them somewhere reasonably dry and warm.

[Louiswenley]

8 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

Yes it looks like the rifle is a Mauser Gewehr 98 - the basic WWI German infantry weapon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_98
 

The shell is probably an 18 Pounder shrapnel shell casing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_18-pounder_gun
 

There are various threads on here regarding rust removal. With that level of rust, I would probably use electrolysis to do the heavy lifting and then give it a final tidy up with citric acid. However, they don’t need cleaning / preserving per se if you keep them somewhere reasonably dry and warm.

Thanks! I’m pretty sure I know most things I need for electrolysis but I’m struggling with the battery somewhat. Do you know if this would work?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Regulated-Switching-Converter-Transformer-24V-10A-240W/dp/B08812VS12?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=AMLSPJ1RPLV4S&th=1

 

[peregrinvs]

I’m not entirely sure what that is. A bog standard car battery charger will do the job.

[JMB1943]

Peregrinus has it right, electrolysis is probably the way to go initially, esp. since you say the metal is brittle.

Because of this, I would tend to low current and slow, with 1-2 % w/v sodium carbonate (washing soda) solution as the electrolyte.

Battery charger will work, with negative clip attached to rifle (IIRC) and positive clip to an iron rod.

Don’t use stainless steel because this contains chromium which will generate carcinogenic salts in the solution.

I am looking forward to seeing the concretions removed from that relic.

Regards,

JMB