Pattern 1907 sword bayonet - Strange "RE" inspection marking?

[5thBatt]

2nd one

1917 BSA MkIII*

RE markings 

 

[navydoc16]

5 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

A single isolated R is also apparently found on some SMLE rifles stamped on the knox form. It is mentioned in Skennerton's books but without any officially known meaning attached. Has anybody seen these marks and have any thoughts.? Particularly about the approximate period they were applied, and if any noticeable repair works were involved.

Cheers,  SS 

Australian service- a Stylised R is supposed to indicate Replacement barrel

barrels are also is graded as well using an Asterix 1,2 or 3. *** would mean condemned. A lot of weapons graded ** were later DP marked in the 30s.
 

generally the mass inspection was from weapons coming back from the Great War 1919-1922- I have seen the Asterix markings used

From the Australian Army Armourers manual- think the date is 1924 cites the Asterix but not the R, I believe it is a factory rather than armourers mark a - I have a reference somewhere but can’t remember where 

kind regards

g

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

3 hours ago, Mattr82 said:

The general consensus is that the R seen on Australian SMLE barrels on the knox is for rust. The P in the circle also on the knox has been stated to mean replacement barrel however general consensus now is that it's for a painted barrel. The heart with a P inside is for parallel bore.  

Do you have a source for “painted barrel”? Or “Parrallel bore”? 

“painted barrel” is new to me

who said the P is for replacement barrel and R is for rust?

kind regards

g
 

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[5thBatt]

3rd RE marked SMLE in my collection 

RE markings 

 

 

Edited 4 August by 5thBatt

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel

Found it! - Reference made by the Lithgow Arms Factory Museum

As seen below, much earlier marked Knox MD form, from an earlier rifle, but wearing WW2 refurbished woodwork 

kind regards

g

 

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

On 01/08/2024 at 10:02, shippingsteel said:

The Small Army Factory Lithgow indicates that their documents show the marking including both definitions as below.

kind regards

g

[ColonelKlink1942]

I wish I could add a "like" to posts on this forum, I would've handed out nearly a hundred by now!

Wonderful presentations and research, all of you!

[shippingsteel]

@5thBatt Thanks for adding the photos of your lovely rifles. No doubt about the clear RE inspection markings on those.

@navydoc16 I can guarantee those Lithgow Museum references came straight out of Skennerton's books. Because I have them in front of me quoted word for word. 

The double/reversed/mirrored R you showed earlier is the old British "Condemned" marking (not related)

The script letter R you illustrate on the knox form is listed as an Armourer's "Rust" mark (again not related)

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

7 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

A single isolated R is also apparently found on some SMLE rifles stamped on the knox form. It is mentioned in Skennerton's books but without any officially known meaning attached. Has anybody seen these marks and have any thoughts.? Particularly about the approximate period they were applied, and if any noticeable repair works were involved.

Cheers,  SS 

I was responding to this? R on the Knox form- I’m not sure if the SAF copied Sk to be honest, but not I would have thought the museum would have the appropriate access to resources, but I’ll concede I don’t know

that’s the only “R” Knox marking I am aware of, I have it as “replacement barrel”  in Aust service. And have seen a couple very nice barrels- nil rust with that mark. Note the rifle I showed has early MD markings, parkerised during WW2 with WW2 woodwork indicating a total rebuild during the war.

The Asterix system denote rust as far as the aust armourers manual states, which slightly nullifies the point of an additional marking denoting rust.  

I’m not sure about the “Condemned” mark, I’m only putting forth what Rose has in his book- which is “Reduced in Service”. he seems to indicate on the previous page that it is from “instructions for armourers 1912. But I am well out of my wheelhouse, just looking through my books at this point.

kind regards

g

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel 

following the simple logic of “broad arrow=gov property” “two broad arrow=no longer gov property”

against what Rose has said- Is is possible that by 1918 one R is Reduced in Service and two R is condemned? They are quite a specific looking “R”. And looks awfully close to the one shown on your bayonet- minus backwards R

even have that little “kick up” in the feet 

kind regards

g

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[14276265]

These Inspection symbols and definitions from List of Stamps used by DIM* might clarify some points raised:

 

      

   

 

* The Small Arms stamps in the List were valid (without addition or correction) late 1918, as per a copy dated and stamped DISAA, Woolwich, 21 September 1918.

 

265

 

[navydoc16]

5 hours ago, 14276265 said:

These Inspection symbols and definitions from List of Stamps used by DIM* might clarify some points raised:

 

      

   

 

* The Small Arms stamps in the List were valid (without addition or correction) late 1918, as per a copy dated and stamped DISAA, Woolwich, 21 September 1918.

 

265

 

That’s fascinating, out of curiosity, did the British ever have a marking that denoted “reduced in service” ie how were rifles selected for second line or reserve duties?

 

kind regards

g

[JMB1943]

The below page is copied from "The Lee-Enfield Story", E.G.B. Reynolds (1960), Publ. H. Jenkins, p. 217

It shows symbols on British-marked small-arms,

a) #30,  EY = to be used only in an emergency,

b) #38  Special Sale mark. sold to County Assocns. for Cadets, were fitted with "unsafe" barrel,

c) #39   Special Sale mark, sold for Drill Purpose, fitted with "unsafe " barrel,

d) #40  Condemned stamp applied to small-arms by RAOC Workshops,

e) #18  Rust pitting but still serviceable.

Regards,

JMB

[navydoc16]

@JMB1943 cheers for that

When a rifle is RR to be sold, would a poor condition bayonet be R marked to be sold with it? 
 

kind regard

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[14276265]

3 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

did the British ever have a marking that denoted “reduced in service”?

List of Stamps used by DIM has no such verbatim indication. The nearest is for stamps SA 13 - SA 15 which indicate classification mark of substandard components, SA 16 indicating components only fit for drill purpose arms, and then the well known symbols DP (SA 18: Drill Arms Mark - Arms classified as only fir for drill purposes) and EY (SA 19: Emergency Arms Mark - Arms classified as not up to the standard of service arms, but which may be used in case of emergency).

 

[navydoc16]

@14276265

thanks mate, how curious- thank you for sharing

what about this?

“Double R” on the Knox

probably not relevant to this discussion, but first time I have seen it

kind regards

g

[Mattr82]

The double italicised Rs (one superimposed over the other) was to signify the barrel was deemed unsafe. 
 

One R stamped was for rust and to be cleaned further or examined. The two Rs signified the armourer (probably base depot/workshop level) had examined the barrel and deemed it past its use by date per se.

Edited 5 August by Mattr82

[Mattr82]

And I see that you earlier used a photo of one of my rifles. That rifle is a 1915 BSA that was refurbished in 1918, given a new barrel and serial number.

The DADOS of the AIF gave orders for his staff to go to Woolwich Docks to the equipment warehouse and pick all suitable rifles and bayonets and prepare them for shipping to Australia. all these rifles and bayonets were to have passed inspection from armourers so no rifle was brought back that was not able to be used.  These rifles and those that were factory refurbed in 1918 were then sent back in two shipments (1920 and 1921).

Further rifles came in 1924 and I think these also included .22 calibre rifles and maybe P-14s if I recall correctly.

I haven't read anywhere about a 'mass inspection' of rifles in Australia post-WW1. From the reports and official history of AAOC, it was quite the opposite. There was a lack of ordnance staff and the rifles were quickly issued out to militia units and the rest stored (including those that were to be forwarded to other MDs once their mobilisation stores were up and running.

Whether rifles got Rs or an asterix would depend on where they were examined. As the Army mid-1920s and 1930s was hodge podge, the armourers and subsequent inspection of rifles was literally all over the shop. Armourers would visit ranges or militia/permanent unit depots. And then there was base depots for where the ordnance staff would typically base themselves out of and then there was military district mobilisation stores where equipment would be kept. Only for a significant refurb would a rifle be on its way to the Small Arms Factory. Have a squizz back through 'To the warrior his arms' and it goes into good details about that.

On the subject of other stamnos, here's the P on the barrel for painted barrel. One of these rifles is mine and the other 3 are courtesy of Gunboards.

 

 

Edited 5 August by Mattr82

[navydoc16]

1 hour ago, Mattr82 said:

Whether rifles got Rs or an asterix would depend on where they were examined. As the Army mid-1920s and 1930s was hodge podge, the armourers and subsequent inspection of rifles was literally all over the shop.

Disregarding Army trained qualified armourers apparently just choosing whatever markings they want whenever they want ^

So you would conclude by the 40s these markings should be consistent? Ie there should just be “R” And “RR” 

kind regards

g

 

[Mattr82]

17 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

Disregarding Army trained qualified armourers apparently just choosing whatever markings they want whenever they want ^

So you would conclude by the 40s these markings should be consistent? Ie there should just be “R” And “RR” 

 

 

It wouldn't be a case of armourers just choosing what they want as the armourers from post-WW1 up until the start of WW2, came under the command of their individual Military Districts. The respective MDs had various ways of marking equipment, such as the MD stamping itself on the rifles and use of serial number as MD inventory number rather than the older way. And the armourers within the MDs were trained up inside those MDs.

As to whether they became consistent, yes. In November 1941, the Department of Defence began efforts to take over the issuing of equipment to the AIF and AMF and took this responsibility away from the MDs. That's where in 1943 we start to see standardised armourers notes for Army, Navy and RAAF. There was a conference held in Feb-March 1943 (I think?) that included standardisation of marking of items for when the new Base Depot system was being implemented.

 

Edited 5 August by Mattr82

[navydoc16]

On 05/08/2024 at 00:38, 14276265 said:

These Inspection symbols and definitions from List of Stamps used by DIM* might clarify some points raised:

 

      

   

 

* The Small Arms stamps in the List were valid (without addition or correction) late 1918, as per a copy dated and stamped DISAA, Woolwich, 21 September 1918.

 

265

 

R “enclosed by ring” but next to another smaller R

kind regards

g

[Mattr82]

General consensus amongst the experts is that the R in a circle stands for ‘replacement action’. I think this is pretty accurate. 
 

Could be that the rifle has been sent from an MD to another MD and have taken on its inventory number or has been entered into the gaining MD as a replacement for another rifle. Other examples seen are newer dated rifles with earlier serials stamped on them. There’s a variety of reasons why a replacement action may occur.
 

Not always seen on all rifles that this has happened to and it appears to have faded out mid-WW2 for this marking.

Edited 6 August by Mattr82

[5thBatt]

Back to the RE inspection stamp

Have found a couple of old GBs threads that discussed the RE marking on the NZ E13 & E14 rifles

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1902-metford-pic-heavy.267670/#replies

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/more-long-lee-minutiae.269070/?post_id=2158651#post-2158651

[navydoc16]

@5thBatt how fascinating, these little footnotes of history - thanks for sharing

glad the documentation showed up to that one can be put to bed

are the rifles particularly hard to find? 

kind regards

g

[navydoc16]

My RE marking is associated with a much later date 24