Pattern 1907 sword bayonet - Strange "RE" inspection marking?

[navydoc16]

Not sure what happened in 50- I’ve never owned one or seen one.  Lithgow even went back to making 1907 full length scabbards in 53.

I’ll have to dig through to find the pommel markings but this should do for now. 

you’ll also note the throat of the refurb scabbards 

on hand I have 45-47, 53-57, so I am unsure of what happened in between. 
 

but the cessation of the 1945 refurb program seems to have coencided with the movement of the production facility from Orange Annex to Lithgow.
 

It is mentioned briefly in the book “The Lithgow Factory and its People”. The inference drawn is that the Orange factory expected the refurb equipment at OA for some time after the war starting in December 1945. Instead the facility was closed. 
 

@JMB1943 note they are re-bend tested on the spine. 

kind regards

g

Edited 1 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

On 01/08/2024 at 04:43, 5thBatt said:

I have a couple or 3 SMLEs with the RE stamps & every E14 marked NZ Long Lee I have observed has the RE stamp

It is known the E14 marked Long Lees underwent repairs at EFD prior to them being sold to NZ in 1914

I have also observed the RE stamps on some of the ER & CR prefixed Mk1 SMLEs where the photos have shown the right area, have noticed on rifles with the RE stamp also have the RE stamp on the underside of the butt wrist

I have little doubt the RE is Enfield Repair

Will dig out my RE marked SMLEs & do some photos this weekend 

Just to clarify, what is a E14 marked Long Lee? 
 

kind regards

g

[5thBatt]

1 hour ago, navydoc16 said:

Just to clarify, what is a E14 marked Long Lee? 
 

kind regards

g

Around 1913/1914 NZ purchased 15,000 MLMs & MLEs from England, they were marked E13 & E14 on the butt tang, E14 are the most commonly found today

NZ also purchased 15,000 MLEs from Canada in 1914 & they are marked C14 on the tang

Don't currently have a E14 example but do have a C14

Edited 1 August by 5thBatt

[navydoc16]

@5thBatt beautiful markings and likely I expect a beautiful rifle too. 
 

thanks for clarifying and sharing 

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

9 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Yet another type of repair stamp, observed on a 1916 Lithgow Patt. 1907 bayonet.

Left ricasso has “12 . 45 . R”

Right ricasso has “R” only for repair.

So again we have some interesting markings here that are "known" to collectors.

The first is a relatively well documented post WW2 Australian refurbishment mark, and this style is listed in Skennerton's B&CB. These Australian markings rolled on into the Korean War period with a few slight changes in the format over time.

Now the other mark being just an isolated letter R stamped on the ricasso is considerably lesser known. It is one that I have posted on before many years back without much success. I developed my own theory along the lines of being a Repair mark under Australian supervision, and I own a couple examples of this marking. I will try to go back and locate the old thread and photos.

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Just got back from deep in the dusty archives haha ... someone really needs to clean up back there.! 

Anyway it seems this particular topic was the one thing that prompted me to join up to this Forum, a couple of years ago ... 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/140109-p1907-bayonet-markings

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteelThanks mate it will be fun to try get to the bottom of it.

one comment is I don’t think I have seen the R mark on the ricasso in “isolation” ie it seems to be only on these 45 “refurbishment” or “repair” bayonets on an Australian 1907.

confusing more is in at least official document and one or more of the SK books I have seen the “R” mark allocated to “Rust” on a weapon, although admittedly I can’t remember if it was for small arms including/excluding bayonets. 
 

kind regards

g

 

Edited 2 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

What’s more is that of all my “R” marked spine bayonets- not all have the new “X” re-test

one could postulate that a bayonet that required a “repair” that needed a “re-test”? Ie. pommel or crossguard repairs that required re-heating? 
 

I am certain however that these items were not just repaired (if they were repaired) they were certainly completely refurbished- new grips, new parkerisation, new blade grind and new finish, Slazenger did big runs of grips dated 53-57 that normally match the refurbishment date as well

kind regards

g

Edited 2 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

Here’s the sort of condition of these pieces post “refurbishment” 

I can’t find some of my other refurb dates there’s a few too many to go through

But as you’ll note, some are “X” spine marked and others are not 

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

19 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Now the other mark being just an isolated letter R stamped on the ricasso is considerably lesser known ...

So I pulled up an old photo of this marking for reference. Sorry about the quality and focus ... we only had 100kb limits back in the old days.!

It is definitely a letter R and is mostly found associated with an '18 reissue mark. I believe that it is a WW1 era stamping. Official reason remains unknown at this stage.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

21 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

So I pulled up an old photo of this marking for reference. Sorry about the quality and focus ... we only had 100kb limits back in the old days.!

It is definitely a letter R and is mostly found associated with an '18 reissue mark. I believe that it is a WW1 era stamping. Official reason remains unknown at this stage.

Cheers,  SS 

Is it a bayonet that you still own by chance? May be able to “inspect to see the repair/refurb. 
 

im guessing given the relative rarity of the marking - “R” for repair would be more logical in this instance? 
 

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

Yes I do still have it, and probably the best example of WW1 sandblasted finish in my collection, you can actually see it on the blade in the ricasso photo above.

Regarding the repair, this bayonet appears to have had the obligatory "used as a Hammer" treatment whilst in service.! With the flat side of the pommel having been somewhat roughly ground back, and looking like it has been done with the old grindstone on the wheel.

So given all the evidence, the possibility of Repair or Refurbishment "in the field" is certainly not out of the question.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 3 August by shippingsteel

[navydoc16]

@shippingsteel I personally haven’t see the mark nearly at all, and not even in person. I will search my collection later and see if I don’t have an “R” somewhere in WW1 British service 

would be good to have a couple primary examples 

Kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

It is not a rare marking, I would say perhaps a little uncommon. When I used to scour the net looking for items to purchase, I would see it fairly regularly ... and always with an '18 reissue date or very occasionally with a '19 date. 

From the old thread I linked, Chris (4thG) immediately found he had one in his collection.! Once you know what to look for, you often see things that are usually overlooked.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

I am actually leaning towards the R on the ricasso side of the WW2 Australian - Standing for “Re-test” in terms of new bend test.
 

I have purchased the Lithgow 1916 @JMB1943 mentioned previously and will document it for the group when it arrives. I think it has a replacement pommel.
 

kind regards

g

[ColonelKlink1942]

I was going to mention that I have an "R" marking, but it's on that Pattern 1876 socket and is therefore unrelated. In that unrelated case, it stands for "re-temper" for when the blade was repaired and underwent the appropriate testing (with a date stamped on it for the test), I would think this has a similar meaning for the Pattern 1907s, no?

I could very well be wrong of course.

Edited 3 August by ColonelKlink1942

[navydoc16]

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

It is not a rare marking, I would say perhaps a little uncommon. When I used to scour the net looking for items to purchase, I would see it fairly regularly ... and always with an '18 reissue date or very occasionally with a '19 date. 

From the old thread I linked, Chris (4thG) immediately found he had one in his collection.! Once you know what to look for, you often see things that are usually overlooked.

Cheers,  SS 

Very curious, yes it tends to be the case haha that once you know what to look for- it turns up a lot more often  
 

However I will say- geographies mean that we tend not to see many British bayonets from that period, except those re-patriated from GB and USA. But I’ll have a look in my lot none the less. 

kind regards

g
 

 

[navydoc16]

2 hours ago, ColonelKlink1942 said:

I was going to mention that I have an "R" marking, but it's on that Pattern 1876 socket and is therefore unrelated. In that unrelated case, it stands for "re-temper" for when the blade was repaired and underwent the appropriate testing (with a date stamped on it for the test), I would think this has a similar meaning for the Pattern 1907s, no?

I could very well be wrong of course.

Well it really is a bit of a muddle, because there is lots of words that start with “R” all starting with the same. 
 

I like the term “Re-temper” especially if you have a reference or half decent documentation.

as we have postulated before- these terms change with time so no one is right or wrong

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

Well here is another example of the R marking, this time combined with the '19 reissue. This one just turned up on my social media ... quite timely I thought.!

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

Probably one of the most important things is going again to be “context”

As silly as it sounds, markings were intended to indicate something specific to someone specific. 

I have below the Armourers Manual 1931

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

Well here is another example of the R marking, this time combined with the '19 reissue. This one just turned up on my social media ... quite timely I thought.!

Cheers,  SS 

Chapter 2- section 4 REPAIRS has no reference to any “R” marking being placed during repair- however 3 times states “exchange for Factory Repair”- there is also a section on a new “box test” or bend test- and there is no “R” for Re-test either  

I think “Rust” is probably a stretch, as you can see Rust so you would you need to mark it with a stamp. Additionally it states in cleaning, badly rusted blades are to be exchanged - Factory Repair. 

there is a section here @JMB1943 you will like regarding “sharpening” 

kind regards

g

Edited 3 August by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

I have a PDF copy of the 1916 manual and it had very little in the way of bayonet repair, mainly re-browning and the scabbards.

 

[navydoc16]

Rose has this- Reduced in Service, perhaps a misstrike on the “double R” or an evolution to a single “R” over time- just a guess

or completely unrelated 

he does state that his resource, only comments on Small Arms Systems, and not bayonets specifically 

but if you have linked them @shippingsteel often with ‘18 and ‘19 inspectors markings- that would make sense as it is mimicked in the Australian Second line/grade D^D2 which almost allways accompanies a 1918 dated bayonet, as they weren’t graded until after the war

kind regards

g

Edited 4 August by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

A single isolated R is also apparently found on some SMLE rifles stamped on the knox form. It is mentioned in Skennerton's books but without any officially known meaning attached. Has anybody seen these marks and have any thoughts.? Particularly about the approximate period they were applied, and if any noticeable repair works were involved.

Cheers,  SS 

[Mattr82]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

A single isolated R is also apparently found on some SMLE rifles stamped on the knox form. It is mentioned in Skennerton's books but without any officially known meaning attached. Has anybody seen these marks and have any thoughts.? Particularly about the approximate period they were applied, and if any noticeable repair works were involved.

Cheers,  SS 

The general consensus is that the R seen on Australian SMLE barrels on the knox is for rust. The P in the circle also on the knox has been stated to mean replacement barrel however general consensus now is that it's for a painted barrel. The heart with a P inside is for parallel bore.  

[5thBatt]

First of my RE marked SMLEs

1915 LSA 

RE on the barrel 

 

RE on the butt

A little extra surprise under the nosecap which also appears at the other end

 

Edited 4 August by 5thBatt