Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

MM Revoked? William Johnson, King's Royal Rifles


PMJ

Recommended Posts

Good afternoon all,

 

I grew up hearing that my Great Grandfather was a recipient of the MM but I have never been able to find anything to confirm this until the other day when I found the following. It has MM after his name but has been struck out.

Can anyone shed any light on what this means? Or if he did win the MM, what the citation was for? 

 

Thanks in advance., 

 

 

Image courtesy of the National Archives

image.png.fc964a2f475b32371c9c25214694c7e2.png

Edited by PMJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

According to FMP he was recorded as being awarded the MM in this London Gazette

image.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

Ancestry shows his MIC also confirms the award of the MM

image.png

There is a Pension Card for him on Fold3 and the MIC shows he was awarded a Silver War Badge (meaning he was discharged for a reason such as wounds or sickness - the record will advise which)

image.png

 

You may be lucky and his award of the MM might be mentioned in the battalion war diary 

10 Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps | The National Archives

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry posted same image as above, so I removed it

 

Edited by djs63
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A check of his local papers may reveal a little more, gallantry awards and woundings often made the press. If you’re very lucky you may even find a photograph. 
Finding the citation for his MM may prove far more difficult.

Simon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's certainly on the National Archives under DCM and MM's. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6180077 The preview of the Medal Card simply gives the London Gazette date, Name, Rank, Number and Bn, however it hasn't been struck through or Forfeited/Cancelled written across it.

 

You've included an image of the War and Victory Medal Roll above, have you checked his 1915 Star Roll entry?

 

Sam

Edited by roughdiamond
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

There is a Pension Card for him on Fold3

Discharged 20.7.18 

30/- pw from 21.7.18 to 24.9.18 = under the prevailing 1918 for a pension class IV soldier = 100% disability rate [commonly a starter rate]

There is also a pension ledger page which identifies his disabilities claimed for as:

  1. GSW Lt Upper Arm
  2. Musculo Spiral Palsy [which I think would likely have been related to the GSW]

Degree of disability reduces and Final award to 11-11-24 and Terminal Gratuity £20

M

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PMJ said:

Good afternoon all,

 

I grew up hearing that my Great Grandfather was a recipient of the MM but I have never been able to find anything to confirm this until the other day when I found the following. It has MM after his name but has been struck out.

Can anyone shed any light on what this means? Or if he did win the MM, what the citation was for? 

 

Thanks in advance.

I'd suggest your next line of enquiry is family, start with the family of your GGF's eldest son and see if the medals have been passed down through that line, if not keep going through the Siblings families, bare in mind though, many ex-Servicemen pawned and never reclaimed or sold their medals for the scrap value during the Depression to put food on the table.

 

Taking into account the info in the posts above, Gazetted for the MM as a Pte November 1916, reported wounded July 1917 as a Cpl, discharged July 1918 as a Cpl and paid a Pension until November 1924, a forfeiture of a Gallantry Medal would almost certainly be proceeded by a reduction in rank and that isn't evident, therefore I'd surmise the strike through of the MM on the Victory and War Medal Roll, although strange, doesn't represent a forfeiture of the Medal IMHO.

 

Sam

Edited by roughdiamond
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was in this Casualty list published 10th July 1917. from The BNA.

Snap 2024-06-11 at 17.14.42.png

Prior to that 8th September 1916.

Snap2024-06-11at17_17_45.png.0bed0560200ce22825f464d075c8f0f4.png

Edited by sadbrewer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have seen any number of similar MM references crossed out in the BW&V Medal Rolls. The MMs were awarded in every case however. 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the LG I don't think there is much doubt the MM was awarded, but now just musing/asking ...

Is there any possibility that he was subsequently convicted of a civil offence and was required to forfeit and return the medal? 

If so, perhaps there might be a newspaper report of such a case??

Other members may perhaps know better than me about such matters and have access to such resources.

???

M

Edited by Matlock1418
Link to comment
Share on other sites

M

Unfortunately the WDs of the A&QMG 20 Div and A&QMG 14 Corps do not show Honours and Rewards in Routine Orders EDIT in the September papers.  I did a lot of research into 59 Infantry Brigade at Guillemont on 03/09/1916 because I am sure that my RE grandfather was wounded there with 20 Div RE. I will have a look through the LG that W Johnson is named in to see if there are any more from 10 or 11 Bns KRRC and 10 or 11 Bns Rifle Brigade. 

Brian

Edited by brianmorris547
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

His MM index card from TNA.    As Brian says, there may be others to the 10th KRRC in the 16 Nov 1916 as that gazette covered the Somme from 1 July to 3 Sept 1916.

Johnson MM card.png

His MIC shows that he got a Silver War Badge (SWB): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/520232:2456?tid=&pid=&queryId=8f57b103-09b6-4697-8437-823f91bec1bd&_phsrc=qzF17850&_phstart=successSource

Edited by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

I have seen any number of similar MM references crossed out in the BW&V Medal Rolls. The MMs were awarded in every case however. 

Brian

I agree it is quite common to see post-nominals for gallantry awards struck through on medal rolls for campaign medals.  Here is an example (courtesy of Ancestry) of a medal roll with reference to a VC struck through and what appears to be details of an order or authority for the deletion.  The VC awarded to William Short was certainly not removed or revoked.  It is held by the Green Howards Regimental Museum at Richmond. I have no evidence to support the theory but I wonder whether the purpose of such deletions was to ensure that the post-nominals were not mistakenly engraved on the campaign medal.

41804_626640_12062-00025.jpg.4ea23cc21bdb0f676c1ae6871b6a9e79.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

I have no evidence to support the theory but I wonder whether the purpose of such deletions was to ensure that the post-nominals were not mistakenly engraved on the campaign medal.

     That's the best suggestion I've heard. It also helps to cross reference the man with the award.

     DCMs & MMs had any prev gallantry award included in their inscription, but it would be too big and costly a task on service medals.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all so much for your time and effort. I've really enjoyed seeing the info you've found for me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...