Can an enlistment date be determined from a service number?

[GARY BROAD]

Hi all - sorry to be a nuisance (I'm new to researching) but I'm hoping to find out a little more about a family grave that I tend in Kidderminster (I'm a CWGC volunteer - looking after the CWGC headstones, but I also tend all the WW1 and WW2 private memorials which I come across whilst doing my CWGC work).

The soldier's name is Arthur Charles Winbury - I have found out quite a bit about his family life but was trying to determine when he enlisted (he signed-up in Stourbridge). Can this be ascertained via his service number ???

His service number was 1662 and he served in the 14th Bn of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

I'd like to upload his story to the CWGC site For Evermore if I can find a little bit more about his service time (I know where he died).

Thanks for any help you amazing people can offer!

All the best - Gary B   

[Michelle Young]

@Terry Carter might be able to help here? 

[DavidOwen]

FMP have a number of medical record entries for him - image courtesy FMP

On admission to 14 Field Ambulance on 13-04-1916 he was recorded as being in service for 5 months and 1 month in the field. 

[DavidOwen]

Similarly in 1917 (04-03-1917)

In 1917 he was in B Company 14th Bn Warwickshire Regiment (courtesy FMP)

[DavidOwen]

The relevant war diaries can be downloaded from TNA for free once registered, also free. Highly unlikely he will be mentioned by name.

14 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment | The National Archives

14 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment | The National Archives

14 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment (Pioneers) | The National Archives

[GARY BROAD]

David - I'm absolutely blown away by what you've given me, thank you so very, very much - honestly, I'm amazed !  (I rushed in to show the long haired General how brilliant the Forum members are - needless to say she just looked at me, shook her head slowly and went back to her crossword book... hey-ho 'twas ever thus).

Can I assume then that Arthur joined-up in November 1915 and was deployed overseas sometime around March 1916 ? Would that be about right do you think?   Also David, what did you make of the nature of his wound - it looked to me like it was a wound to his hand?

Thanks again David, you help is very much appreciated, honestly. 

[Gardenerbill]

In answer to your original question, generally yes you can determine enlistment date from service numbers. Regiments and Corps had their own unique chronological numbers, so even if there is no surviving service record, near numbers with a record will give a good indication.

[jay dubaya]

There is a possibility that the number 1662 was issued during 1910 which fits with his age. I note his medal roll entry lists 15th and 1st battalions, the latter to which this number may have been issued, the former number also explains why it can be seen on some documents with a 15/ prefix. He wasn’t entitled to a Star, so overseas post 31st December 1915.

[DavidOwen]

Gary

You are most welcome, it is what the forum is about after all.

You are correct in the math relating to the service recorded in the medical records but as mentioned above it is possible he had pre-war service too (although no direct evidence of that yet). His year of birth being 1882 the pre-war service would be possible.

Another entry from FMP confirms he had injuries to his toe and finger

[Pat Atkins]

Paul Nixon's blog here says 1650 joined the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in June 1910, which would fit with 1662 having Regular, pre-war service as posited. However, if he's shown anywhere as 15/1662 that would suggest to me that he was given the number on joining 15th Bn - I'm not aware of examples of existing service numbers being kept but assigned a new battalion-specific prefix like that when a man changed battalions. If others have come across this, I'd be very glad to know.

[DavidOwen]

Interestingly a couple of the medical records state " 3/att 14" which would suggest to me his battalion was originally 3?

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

Paul Nixon's blog here says 1650 joined the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in June 1910, which would fit with 1662 having Regular, pre-war service as posited.

There is a Medal Index Card for a 1662 Private C. Gould, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, for just his 1914 Star, showing him as first landing in France on the 1st November 1914 - so most likely either a Regular or a Special \ Extra Reservist. He is shown as discharged, and there is a SWB Card for him under Charles Ed Gould, Irish Labour Command ex Royal Warwickshire Regiment with a date of enlistment of the 10th August 1914. That would account for either 3/1662 Special Reserve or 4/1662 Extra Reserve.

(The separate MiC for his Victory Medal and British War Medal as Charles E. Gould shows him as later 235846 Labour Corps).

There is also a MiC for 1662 Private John E. White, Royal Warwickshire Regiment who first landed in France on the 4th October 1914 and was subsequently a Prisoner of War. His records at the International Commitee of the Red Cross show him captured on the 19th October 1914, although it is not specific about Battalion. He was born 14th May 1892 at Alyth Malta, and his next of kin lived at Isla Road, Alyth, Perthshire.

Whichever individual was Regular Army service number 1662 in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment then they would have been in the Colours at the time of the 1911 Censuses.

As Arthur was 36 when he died in 1918, according to his entry on CWGC, he would have been at the top end agewise for a man enlisting for the first time in 1910.
CWGC has the additional information that he was the "Son of William and Hannah Winbury, of Kidderminster." https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/867454/arthur-charles-winbury/

Which makes it likely he was the 29 year old unmarried Carpet Designer Arthur Charles Winbury, born Kidderminster, who was recorded living with parents William and Hannah at 22 Yew Tree Road, Kidderminster, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. That would most likely close the door to the possibility of him being a pre-war Regular.

His MiC shows him as only entitled to the Victory Medal and British War Medal - so didn't land in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. The 14th Battalion meanwhile had landed at Boulogne on the 21 November 1915. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-warwickshire-regiment/

Arthur was therefore part of a draft to the 14th from elsewhere - and if he was 14/1662 may even have been renumbered at an Infantry Base Depot in France. At that point the linkage between service number and date of enlistment almost certainly breaks down.

And just to cross the i's and dot the t's on the service numbers, there is an 18 year old Private John White, born Alyth, Perthshire, who was recorded in Barracks at Lichfield with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment on the night of the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

There is one other potential avenue of enquiry. Arthur didn't die until April 1918, so had almost certainly served more than 12 months in the Army. After 12 months the amount of War Gratuity a soldier would become entitled to would incrementally increase for each additional full month of service completed. Thus if you know the amount of the War Gratuity, (available via the Army Register of Soldiers Effects ledger, awhich can be found on Ancestry & Fold 3), then it is possible for cleverer people than me to calculate the four week period during which he was enlisted, (or if he was a Derby Scheme man, when he was mobilised).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 28 May , 2024 by PRC
Typos

[GARY BROAD]

Peter, that's absolutely brilliant info - thanks so much, it's very much appreciated.

Please excuse my ignorance, but on the CWGC site it shows Arthur's service number as 15/1662 but then shows his Unit/ Regt. as 14th Battalion Royal Warwickshire. Doesn't the service number prefix denote the Battalion served in?

Sorry again if I'm being dim...

Thanks again !

Gary B 

[DavidOwen]

Gary

Not uncommon for soldiers to be switched between battalions but the number wouldn't change in the first instance (if at all). As above it may have been the 3rd Bn he was assigned to in theatre as the medical records have him "attached 14th" later to become 15th. Soldiers moved around.

[GARY BROAD]

David thanks for that - I think I need to 'give my head a wobble' and stop trying to pin his unit movements down quite so rigidly. I guess my real goal is to work out where he was serving throughout his overseas stint; looking at his various Bn numbers he could have been in Italy for a spell and I'd love to be able to confirm that (my Grandad was there with the Worcesters).

Thanks again David, I can't tell you how grateful I am.

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, GARY BROAD said:

Please excuse my ignorance, but on the CWGC site it shows Arthur's service number as 15/1662 but then shows his Unit/ Regt. as 14th Battalion Royal Warwickshire.

A few years back I had the pleasure of helping a forum member with investigating fatalties from an area near Birmingham, with a significant number of casualties coming from the 14th, 15th and 16th Battalions, along with some who died in the UK with the 17th. The story went back to the early weeks of the war when the War Office couldn't sanction new Battalions fast enough in the face of the popular wave to serve. As a result a variety of local schemes came into being and ideas were floated. One from the Mayor of Birmingham and other local worthies was for the City to have it's own Regiment - if it was good enough for Liverpool and Manchester why couldn't Birmingham have one. To get things going registers were set up for would be volunteers to sign up to joining the army if a City of Birmingham regiment was agreed to. Despite the pressure the War Office insisted on the new Battalions being part of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment - hence the additional name 1st Birmingham for the 14th, etc - even the 17th was initially the 4th Birmingham. To keep their distinctiveness they ran their own service numbering schemes and as men moved between Battalions, (to the 17th if they were long term sick or otherwise fell behind with their training, or as drafts from the 17th to backfill the spaces of those discharged), they retained their service numbers including the Battalion prefix.

I've just tried running a search using Geoff's Search Engine for men of the 14th Battalion Royal Warwickwickshire Regiment on the CWGC database who had the numbers "16" in their service number. Gut feel was that there were almost as many 15/ & 16/ prefix men who died serving with the 14th Battalions as individuals who can be shown to have a 14/ prefix by including the information from MiCs and Soldiers Died in the Great War.

Geoff's Search Engine http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

Repeating the same exercise looking for 14/ prefix men who died serving with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, it is well into 1917 before they start turning up serving with any other Battalions apart from the 14th, 15th and 16th - and some of those were individuals who died post discharge and so aren't shown with a specific Battalion.

Could be there are other factors at play and so the records of those who died isn't a true reflection of the situation, but that would require a lot more delving. There will also most likely be surviving service records for some of these men that might shed more light.

Cheers

[RussT]

Terry Carter (Birmingham Pals) has him as 15/1662.

His £10 10s 0d War Gratuity is indicative of a late 1915 enlistment.

The absolute number I think tells he us that he joined when they later raised a Depot Company for each of the 3 City Battalions. The 3 Depot Companies then later became the nucleus of the 17th (Reserve) Battalion, which was used to service the reinforcement needs of those Service Battalions - and was probably one likely reason why the 15/ prefix was readily jettisoned.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

15/1668 as a benchmark

Image Courtesy FMP

 

[RussT]

And 15/1658 to bracket the enlistment date - fits neatly with the War Gratuity

Image - FMP

 

[GARY BROAD]

Russ, I simply don't know what to say - I'm blown away, honestly.

Thank you so, so much for this invaluable assistance. I'm in awe of the depth of knowledge of the Forum members, truly I am....

Thanks again Russ, you are a hero.

All the best

Gary B

[GARY BROAD]

On 28/05/2024 at 11:39, Michelle Young said:

@Terry Carter might be able to help here? 

Michelle - thanks for the great steer - Terry was brilliant and extremely helpful. Thanks again!

All the best, Gary B