Podcasts on British Army Officers Training and Personal Equipment c 1914

[FROGSMILE]

I recently stumbled upon what I thought was a good effort by an accomplished young enthusiast to create quality podcasts covering the subject title of this thread.  I don’t know if he might be a member here in the forum, but online he uses the nom de plum Highland Subaltern.  The imagery is very good and even includes some shots of what is obviously a winter class at the School of Musketry Hythe, whose class photographs we have covered previously in some detail via the sterling efforts of @mrfrank and @PRC.  Anyway, I hope that forum members might enjoy these commendable podcasts: 

 

Edited 27 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Thank you for sharing, an excellent podcast

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you for sharing, an excellent podcast

I thought that his efforts deserved some recognition here.  He has done a series of others all on a similar WW1 theme.  It’s good to know that you found it of interest. 

Edited 28 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Thanks for posting, Frogsmile.

Well worth watching for a layman like me to get a first insight into the topic!

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Thanks for posting, Frogsmile.

Well worth watching for a layman like me to get a first insight into the topic!

GreyC

I’m glad it was useful for you Greyc, I felt that he explained it very well.

FS

Edited 28 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

He did, that´s why I watched two more of his videos.

He calls himself an academic and historian. I wonder if he ever held a commission.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

He did, that´s why I watched two more of his videos.

He calls himself an academic and historian. I wonder if he ever held a commission.

GreyC

Perhaps University OTC, or Territorials, but I don’t know for sure.  He seems more of an enthusiastic academic to me.  Given his obvious interest in WW1 I’m surprised he’s not known as a member here, but many now seem to join Facebook groups instead.

Edited 28 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[AndrewSid]

To repeat others, thanks for posting.

Very watchable and educational.

Andy

[adrian 1008]

Whats the regimental badge ? from memory I m thinking ............West Riding or Queen Alexandra s Hussars, but its only a guess

@FROGSMILE will know straight away

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Whats the regimental badge ? from memory I m thinking ............West Riding or Queen Alexandra s Hussars, but its only a guess

@FROGSMILE will know straight away

West Riding Regiment (Duke of Wellington’s).  Famous elephant with ‘howdah’ collar badges and cap with crest of Duke of Wellington, as a regiment in which he held a commission.

Edited 28 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

thank you

[gordon92]

Highland Subaltern's other videos are also well produced and seem highly accurate. Thank you for posting.

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Highland Subaltern's other videos are also well produced and seem highly accurate. Thank you for posting.

Well if you approve of the Scottish information that he covers that’s a good recommendation Mike, I’m glad that you approve of his efforts, which I think are laudable.

Edited 30 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Well if you approve of the Scottish information that he covers that’s a good recommendation Mike, I’m glad that you approve of his efforts, which I think are laudable.

Yes, he certainly knows the dress of The Black Watch backwards and forwards.  The repro full dress doublet he was wearing in a few scenes did not have thistle lace around the collar, but that is to be expected since those machines most probably do not exist anymore.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Yes, he certainly knows the dress of The Black Watch backwards and forwards.  The repro full dress doublet he was wearing in a few scenes did not have thistle lace around the collar, but that is to be expected since those machines most probably do not exist anymore.

It’s all made with synthetics now (Mylar, or similar) so I’m not sure that they need the old machines.  I doubt that Scottish lace pattern has been discontinued, it’s probably used by the entire Royal Regiment of Scotland and, although there’s less use for full dress (just the band and few remaining corps of drums and pipes remaining), there is still a fairly substantial requirement for mess dress**.

** Afternote:  looking at the mess dress it seems that only Russia braid is used on the contemporary RRS mess dress, which leaves just the band (director of music).  The drum major uses universal lace I think? 

Edited 30 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s all made with synthetics now (Mylar, or similar) so I’m not sure that they need the old machines.  I doubt that Scottish lace pattern has been discontinued, it’s probably used by the entire Royal Regiment of Scotland and, although there’s less use for full dress (just the band and few remaining corps of drums and pipes remaining), there is still a fairly substantial requirement for mess dress**.

** Afternote:  looking at the mess dress it seems that only Russia braid is used on the contemporary RRS mess dress, which leaves just the band (director of music).  The drum major uses universal lace I think? 

The Director of Music for the Band of the RRS, who is a commissioned officer, does, I believe, have gold lacing on the collar and cuffs of his full dress doublet. I rather suspect, however, that the lace is universal pattern. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, gordon92 said:

The Director of Music for the Band of the RRS, who is a commissioned officer, does, I believe, have gold lacing on the collar and cuffs of his full dress doublet. I rather suspect, however, that the lace is universal pattern. 

Here are head and shoulders photos of two incumbents.  The uniform is largely similar to the full dress of an officer of Highlanders at the outbreak of WW1.  The incumbent wearing a gold lace belt seems to be sufficiently well defined to make out Scottish lace.  Also the gauntlet cuffs I think.

Edited 31 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Here are head and shoulders photos of two incumbents.  The uniform is largely similar to the full dress of an officer of Highlanders at the outbreak of WW1.  The incumbent wearing a gold lace belt seems to be sufficiently well defined to make out Scottish lace.  Also the gauntlet cuffs I think.

Thank you, Frogsmile, for posting these great images of the RRS Director of Music.  He does indeed dress very close to that of a Highland officer pre-1914.  It is notable that in your last photo he wears the sword belt over the sash as for the A&SH.  I really like the red over white hackles worn by the RRS bandsmen; this perpetrates the style worn by the Gordon Highlanders military band.

Focusing on your first image, I don't know what title would be ascribed to the pattern of gold lace on his doublet, but it is not thistle lace.  Shown below is the thistle pattern lace that was incorporated into officers' full dress doublets through 1939.  This doublet belonged to Major Arthur H.C. Sutherland who was commissioned into the 2nd Bn Black Watch in 1910.  He was severely wounded at Aubers Ridge in May 1915 but continued in the Army until 1921.

Edited 31 May , 2024 by gordon92

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Thank you, Frogsmile, for posting these great images of the RRS Director of Music.  He does indeed dress very close to that of a Highland officer pre-1914.  It is notable that in your last photo he wears the sword belt over the sash as for the A&SH.  I really like the red over white hackles worn by the RRS bandsmen; this perpetrates the style worn by the Gordon Highlanders military band.

Focusing on your first image, I don't know what title would be ascribed to the pattern of gold lace on his doublet, but it is not thistle lace.  Shown below is the thistle pattern lace that was incorporated into officers' full dress doublets through 1939.  This doublet belonged to Major Arthur H.C. Sutherland who was commissioned into the 2nd Bn Black Watch in 1910.  He was severely wounded at Aubers Ridge in May 1915 but continued in the Army until 1921.

I’m pleased you like the images, although I’m not as confident as you that the RRS DofM isn’t wearing Thistle Lace as traditionally used by the Scottish regiments (and Lords Lieutenant within Scotland for some dress items I think, although I’m not positive).

I only say this because I don’t think the images are quite good enough and that Mylar, because it doesn’t fade like real gold lace, is more difficult to ‘read’.  I also can see no reason not to use it.  Mylar isn’t expensive (unlike real gold lace) and there is great sensitivity to ensure that home nation differences (specifically Scotland and Northern Ireland) are preserved as much as possible.

As such items as doublets are no longer mass produced via large scale contracts I don’t think it would be a financial issue for the lone DofM, to have the correct lace provided.  All that said it’s going to be a challenge to get a source of accurate information.

I recall that forum members @Ron Abbott and @Glengarry1950 have both had recent dealings with contemporary pipes and drums of British units and they might be able to confirm or not whether Thistle lace still appears on the DofM doublet.

I note that one of the principle suppliers of lace to the Ministry of Defence still lists Thistle lace among its list of products, and although I do not suggest that is proof, it does beg the question who else but the British Army would require it: https://www.handembroideryshop.com/products/14028262

Edited 31 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m pleased you like the images, although I’m not as confident as you that the RRS DofM isn’t wearing Thistle Lace as traditionally used by the Scottish regiments (and Lords Lieutenant within Scotland for some dress items I think, although I’m not positive).

I only say this because I don’t think the images are quite good enough and that Mylar, because it doesn’t fade like real gold lace, is more difficult to ‘read’.  I also can see no reason not to use it.  Mylar isn’t expensive (unlike real gold lace) and there is great sensitivity to ensure that home nation differences (specifically Scotland and Northern Ireland) are preserved as much as possible.

As such items as doublets are no longer mass produced via large scale contracts I don’t think it would be a financial issue for the lone DofM, to have the correct lace provided.  All that said it’s going to be a challenge to get a source of accurate information.

I recall that forum members @Ron Abbott and @Glengarry1950 have both had recent dealings with contemporary pipes and drums of British units and they might be able to confirm or not whether Thistle lace still appears on the DofM doublet.

I note that one of the principle suppliers of lace to the Ministry of Defence still lists Thistle lace among its list of products, and although I do not suggest that is proof, it does beg the question who else but the British Army would require it: https://www.handembroideryshop.com/products/14028262

The thistle lace from this supplier is not an exact match to the old 1914 era pattern.  So, I do leave open the possibility that this modern thistle lace could be a match to that on the uniform of the RRS D of M although it is not entirely clear to me.  I also notice that this supplier offers shamrock lace and rose lace, the latter I might imagine could be used by the D of Ms for the remaining English bands.  Thanks for bringing this up.

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

The thistle lace from this supplier is not an exact match to the old 1914 era pattern.  So, I do leave open the possibility that this modern thistle lace could be a match to that on the uniform of the RRS D of M although it is not entirely clear to me.  I also notice that this supplier offers shamrock lace and rose lace, the latter I might imagine could be used by the D of Ms for the remaining English bands.  Thanks for bringing this up.

Yes I think those are most likely the uses of the National lace, but apart from the bands and some mess uniforms the usage must be minimal nowadays**.  It will be interesting to hear from Ron and Hiram to get their take.

I’m not sure what the contemporary Lord’s Lieutenant use beyond the blue patrol uniform which has become a sort of all things to all men uniform.  Quite remarkable for something that in its original form was just a reasonably smart barracks uniform with minimal use of insignia.

Edited 1 June , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think those are most likely the uses of the National lace, but apart from the bands and some mess uniforms the usage must be minimal nowadays**.  It will be interesting to hear from Ron and Hiram to get their take.

I’m not sure what the contemporary Lord’s Lieutenant use beyond the blue patrol uniform which has become a sort of all things to all men uniform.  Quite remarkable for something that in its original form was just a reasonably smart barracks uniform with minimal use of insignia.

I wonder who would use the shamrock pattern lace today.  I have only ever seen the Royal Irish Regiment Bandmaster/DofM in a green frock coat, never in a full dress tunic. I think Irish Guards officers wear the standard Foot Guards pattern gold lace.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

I wonder who would use the shamrock pattern lace today.  I have only ever seen the Royal Irish Regiment Bandmaster/DofM in a green frock coat, never in a full dress tunic. I think Irish Guards officers wear the standard Foot Guards pattern gold lace.

Yes, I agree on both points and was musing to myself earlier when you replied.  The only possibility I can think of at the moment is a Lord Lieutenant (and perhaps his deputies), but I’m not sure, as I mentioned earlier.

[gordon92]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I agree on both points and was musing to myself earlier when you replied.  The only possibility I can think of at the moment is a Lord Lieutenant (and perhaps his deputies), but I’m not sure, as I mentioned earlier.

Another possibility is the two modern day cavalry regiments that have an Irish lineage (I forget the contemporary names) back to the four antecedent Irish cavalry regiments (4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, 5th Royal Irish Lancers, 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars).

[GreyC]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

I wonder who would use the shamrock pattern lace today. 

Hi,

why not write and ask the handembroidery-shop?

GreyC