Newfoundland Unknown Soldier

[jay dubaya]

It’s a relief Newfoundland’s Unknown Soldier was taken from Cagincourt BC and not Y Ravine as I had mistakenly assumed but I’m surprised he wasn’t a 1st July casualty. No doubt whatever was going on in the memorial park the same day and ruffled my feathers will remain a mystery.

He’s likely one of the battalion’s 142 dead from 14th April 1917 who have no known grave and are remembered at Beaumont-Hamel. The battalion sent 20 officers and 591 ORs into the attack with 17 (84%) officers and 470 (79.5%) ORs becoming casualties with an overall 157 (25.7%) casualties being fatalities. Compared to 1st July when the battalion sent 20 officers and 710 ORs into the attack with 26 (100%) officers and 658 (92.7%) ORs becoming casualties with an overall 243 (33%) casualties being fatalities. Perhaps the decision to repatriate a Newfoundlander from Monchy relates to how the dead from the two attacks are commemorated. 109 (45%) of 1st July 1916 fatalities have named graves compared to just 15 (9%) for 14th April 1917.

The Unknown Warrior buried in Westmister Abbey is one of a potential 178260 candidates compared to -

Australian Unknown Soldier one of 11873.

Canadian Unknown Soldier one of 11780.

New Zealand Unknown Soldier one of 1711.

Newfoundland Unknown Soldier one of 586 (reduced to 142 when a timeline for the casualty can be speculated).

South African Unknown Soldier one of 1254.

(numbers based on 'FWW', 'Air Force/Army', 'France', 'Memorial' and 'country served with' used as CWGC database search parameters) 

 

On 18/07/2024 at 01:42, TonyOno said:

I'm trying to get an exact number of unknown Newfoundland Regiment Graves.

Whilst I cannot offer an answer to this, I've got 1st July numbers covered and the rest are gently ticking over on the back burner...

We sure do miss our conversations with Richard, particularly at present. We have an ongoing case which has somewhat cocooned one of his last reports submitted to the CWGC. 

[TonyOno]

12 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

It’s a relief Newfoundland’s Unknown Soldier was taken from Cagincourt BC and not Y Ravine as I had mistakenly assumed but I’m surprised he wasn’t a 1st July casualty. No doubt whatever was going on in the memorial park the same day and ruffled my feathers will remain a mystery.

He’s likely one of the battalion’s 142 dead from 14th April 1917 who have no known grave and are remembered at Beaumont-Hamel. The battalion sent 20 officers and 591 ORs into the attack with 17 (84%) officers and 470 (79.5%) ORs becoming casualties with an overall 157 (25.7%) casualties being fatalities. Compared to 1st July when the battalion sent 20 officers and 710 ORs into the attack with 26 (100%) officers and 658 (92.7%) ORs becoming casualties with an overall 243 (33%) casualties being fatalities. Perhaps the decision to repatriate a Newfoundlander from Monchy relates to how the dead from the two attacks are commemorated. 109 (45%) of 1st July 1916 fatalities have named graves compared to just 15 (9%) for 14th April 1917.

The Unknown Warrior buried in Westmister Abbey is one of a potential 178260 candidates compared to -

Australian Unknown Soldier one of 11873.

Canadian Unknown Soldier one of 11780.

New Zealand Unknown Soldier one of 1711.

Newfoundland Unknown Soldier one of 586 (reduced to 142 when a timeline for the casualty can be speculated).

South African Unknown Soldier one of 1254.

(numbers based on 'FWW', 'Air Force/Army', 'France', 'Memorial' and 'country served with' used as CWGC database search parameters) 

 

Whilst I cannot offer an answer to this, I've got 1st July numbers covered and the rest are gently ticking over on the back burner...

We sure do miss our conversations with Richard, particularly at present. We have an ongoing case which has somewhat cocooned one of his last reports submitted to the CWGC. 

Thank you very much for that detailed comparison, Jay, it really highlights the significance  of other engagements of the Newfoundland Regiment beyond Beaumont-Hamel.  Notwithstanding the place Beaumont-Hamel holds in the province's psyche, hopefully, the selection of an unknown Newfoundland Regiment soldier from Monchy-le-Preux will generate greater interest and discussion.

[TonyOno]

Although not directly related to the unknown Newfoundland soldier (and perhaps a moderator might sever this into a separate thread), I noticed that, in Y Ravine cemetery,  the headstone for Gladney indicates an unknown soldier is also buried with him. However, the GRRF indicates that Gladney is buried with an unknown Newfoundland soldier. Is this something that could/should be corrected by the CWGC based on the original documentation? 

[kenf48]

15 minutes ago, TonyOno said:

Is this something that could/should be corrected by the CWGC based on the original documentation?

Suggest you ask CWGC

[Matlock1418]

55 minutes ago, TonyOno said:

Although not directly related to the unknown Newfoundland soldier (and perhaps a moderator might sever this into a separate thread), I noticed that, in Y Ravine cemetery,  the headstone for Gladney indicates an unknown soldier is also buried with him. However, the GRRF indicates that Gladney is buried with an unknown Newfoundland soldier. Is this something that could/should be corrected by the CWGC based on the original documentation? 

I am no way associated with CWGC and I am not answering on their behalf but a fairly stock sort of answer that I would suspect will quite likely be used here by CWGC is that "GGRF were 'work in progress documents' so will not necessarily represent the final conclusion before the headstone was prepared" [or similar words] - but I also I would also expect that there is likely now a lack of any remaining fuller evidence, either way, at CWGC.

As it publicly stands I wouldn't expect change based on a GRRF alone.

Yet, I certainly don't think there is any harm in raising the enquiry at CWGC, I encourage review

Always worth keeping such matters under review and CWGC on their toes.

And the CWGC answer might just perhaps surprise us all with information that is not yet in the wider public domain [specifically and/or on their processes & documentation].

M

Edited 20 July by Matlock1418

[TonyOno]

Thanks Matlock!

For a moment I thought that perhaps I misread the GRRF, which is still a distinct possibility! As I am relatively new to the subject, I really appreciate your feedback!! Many thanks!

[jay dubaya]

When such anomalies surface it is wise to check the Headstone Schedules and headstone images where available. In this instance the answere is clear, Gladneys' headstone includes the UBS from D.18 and not the unknown Newfoundlander from D.20 who appears on the headstone with Lind. Why the headstones have been doubled up is still unknown to me...

 

[TonyOno]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

When such anomalies surface it is wise to check the Headstone Schedules and headstone images where available. In this instance the answere is clear, Gladneys' headstone includes the UBS from D.18 and not the unknown Newfoundlander from D.20 who appears on the headstone with Lind. Why the headstones have been doubled up is still unknown to me...

 

Thanks for that advice, Jay! I hadn't been paying attention to the headstone reports...but I will in future! Really appreciate your superb knowledge on the matter!!

[jay dubaya]

...but something isn't right

Having rechecked the HS I now note that the one graves at D.23 (unknown NFLD and UBS) originally marked as 'NFLD 1420 Doughty Pte J' on the GRRF, is in fact the first of the UBS headstones in the image above. The GRRF only removes the number and name, not the regiment, this headstone is wrong. Until now I hadn't noticed this anomally with this particular grave, I researched the name several years ago which points to a casualty who has a very illuminating personel file and it is one of the cases I have sat on my laptop...

appologies for the image quality... not sure what happened.

 

[TonyOno]

48 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

...but something isn't right

Having rechecked the HS I now note that the one graves at D.23 (unknown NFLD and UBS) originally marked as 'NFLD 1420 Doughty Pte J' on the GRRF, is in fact the first of the UBS headstones in the image above. The GRRF only removes the number and name, not the regiment, this headstone is wrong. Until now I hadn't noticed this anomally with this particular grave, I researched the name several years ago which points to a casualty who has a very illuminating personel file and it is one of the cases I have sat on my laptop...

appologies for the image quality... not sure what happened.

 

Fascinating find, Jay; not sure I understand it completely, but that's on my part. Even the headstone report for Lind doesn't indicate an unknown Nfld, but the GRRF does (as you commented on earlier). I also did a quick check of the Died in Service db at The Rooms and nothing comes up for either Doughty or the service number 1420 - where do you know his file from?

Thanks again Jay ( and to everyone weighing in); I'm learning so much and really thankful.