Brit. P.08 Canvas frogs

[Steve1871]

Just got the 6 Canvas Frogs, friend Paul say are P08 British. Guess he right,  U.S. $475 for the 6, no get the short odd type. Do not know the type, only WW 2 British Rifle got is Mk.4T

My friend Paul has been sorting stuff out from “ The Horder”. A man constantly bought and kept everything to the extreme . Paul won the bid to clear out the “Horders” place when he passed away.  Took him just over a year, that was about 3-4 years ago, he still sorting stuff out that he kept

I know I need get laundry soap and brush to clean the heck out of these frogs. Hope it was a good deal. Anyone know if the canvas frogs for Great War were more common than the Brown leather ones?  I have so many types of British / Commonwealth frogs, it hard to believe. I wish there was a book on British Frogs

Paul said 5 of 6 frogs have the  N and broad arrow,  no think stand for Navy, I not that lucky. Anyone know what the  N might stand for please. Thank you guys

Edited 25 May , 2024 by Steve1871

[M1890 ottoman]

weewoo thats an entire collection up there. I assume you wont pair them with bayonets. diving deeper into britt equipment this season. Might have been watching quite few britishmuzzleloaders videos.

[Steve1871]

I got many British bayonets and also, a lot of frogs. But can use most of these on some of my P.1888’s, but think these might seem better with the P.07 bayonets, think only have 4 of those.   
As collector, when several comes up, grab them for future bayonets or something. I could not resist!

[peregrinvs]

Very nice score. Lots on info here on the 1908 Pattern frog:

http://karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/carriers_frog.html
 

Yes, the N is the Royal Navy property mark. Also seen on post-WWI 1919 Pattern webbing.

I wouldn’t clean them too vigorously as you will also lose some of the original khaki dye.

[trench whistle]

Nice collection. I think the odd short one is to hold a set of pliers rather than a bayonet. 

[Pete_C]

The frogs are so called ‘3rd issue’ in that they don’t have the two brass reinforcing rivets of earlier patterns, and likely date from 1918 onwards. The three frogs on the right on the top row appear to have been ‘4th issue’ at some point in that they’d had the 1” helve straps removed (or manufactured post GW without the strap) following the deletion of the intrenching tool in 1923, but subsequently reattached for naval issue, as the British Navy retained the intrenching tool right up to WW2. You can see the stitching where the straps have been reattached - as manufactured the stitching was not visible from the front as the strap was sewn in place to the rear layer before the front layer was attached. 
Price wise they’re just about in the ball park on a good day  - condition generally determines value and collectors tend to prefer unblancoed examples with clear date and maker stamps. They’d benefit from a gentle clean up, especially the white blancoed examples, but as pointed out above, any vigorous cleaning will almost certainly remove the remaining khaki dye.

Pete

edit - regarding whether Pattern 1908 frogs are more or less common than surviving Pattern 1914 examples, I’d say there are a lot more web examples around, reflecting the fact that far more Pattern 1908 was manufactured back in the day. 

Edited 25 May , 2024 by Pete_C

[4thGordons]

14 hours ago, trench whistle said:

Nice collection. I think the odd short one is to hold a set of pliers rather than a bayonet. 

I agree, although it seems they sometimes did duty as bayonet frogs. That is what I think also. I have a similar one and asked about it here SEE THESE POSTS

Chris

[Steve1871]

Thank’s All you guys, a lot more info than I realized. The one frog, dated 1918, so even mostly inter-war, I can correctly use as Great War, they did cost me a bit, believing them Great War or pre wAt. GW used. 
 

What do you guys think?.

[Pete_C]

5 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Thank’s All you guys, a lot more info than I realized. The one frog, dated 1918, so even mostly inter-war, I can correctly use as Great War, they did cost me a bit, believing them Great War or pre wAt. GW used. 
 

What do you guys think?.

Steve, if you can’t see a date to the contrary, it’s more likely the frogs were manufactured in 1918 - post war Pattern 1908 contracts were massively scaled-down, so statistically your frogs are more likely to be late GW production. 
If you’re going to attach them to Pattern 1907 scabbards and you want them to look more like they would have in c. 1918, personally I would just give them a gentle clean and apply a thin layer of GW appropriate shade Blanco which would improve their appearance dramatically - they’re actually in fairly decent condition under the staining. But of course it’s down to personal preference and I don’t want to spark a raging debate about originality.
Copy below of the LoC A171, from Mar 1924, referencing the introduction of the new pattern frog and modification of existing stock - the reference to 7-inch tabs is incorrect, it should of course say 5-inch. 7-inch tabs were only produced in very small numbers when this pattern of frog (2nd issue) was introduced in 1909. There will be a subsequent LoC for the reintroduction of the tab for Naval frogs but I can’t track it down - if anyone has a copy ?

Cheers

Pete

[peregrinvs]

I would give them all a gentle wash, but if you want to blanco them I would only put repro blanco on the two examples that are already blancoed. From a webbing collector perspective, the khaki ones will be more valuable left alone IMHO.

Edited 26 May , 2024 by peregrinvs

[Steve1871]

Thanks again guys, for your time and thoughts. What exactly is BLANCO??

[peregrinvs]

Fill yer boots 😉

https://www.blancoandbull.com

[Dave66]

Lovely collection, here in the U.K.,as the e tool strap was obsolete in the 20’s, it was removed…dealers seem to charge a fortune for anything like yours with the strap left on….all mine have the strap removed and I am simply not paying £100, great find.

Dave.

[Steve1871]

Thank you Dave.        
As collector, I saw an opportunity and jumped on it. Seems like I made the right move!

[peregrinvs]

9 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Lovely collection, here in the U.K.,as the e tool strap was obsolete in the 20’s, it was removed…dealers seem to charge a fortune for anything like yours with the strap left on….all mine have the strap removed and I am simply not paying £100, great find.

I was lucky and got one for a reasonable price because it had been dyed black. Likewise however I wouldn’t pay £300-400 (or whatever they’re going for) for an original helve carrier.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/290717-1908-pattern-bayonet-frog/

[Dave66]

11 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

I was lucky and got one for a reasonable price because it had been dyed black. Likewise however I wouldn’t pay £300-400 (or whatever they’re going for) for an original helve carrier.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/290717-1908-pattern-bayonet-frog/

I remember that one….it was a nice find, I suppose one day one will come to me., patience, they say, is a virtue!

[peregrinvs]

2 hours ago, Dave66 said:

I remember that one….it was a nice find, I suppose one day one will come to me., patience, they say, is a virtue!

On various occasions I have found that the ‘wait for a bargain to turn up’ approach eventually pays off.

[navydoc16]

@Steve1871 so hear me out on the cleaning, I put the item in several/multiple (like 3) of those delicates laundry bags, then put my mashing machine on delicate with the max rpm. That way they don’t rub on the actual machine and get damaged. Using pure French soap as a detergent. I cleaned several pouches I thought were irrecoverable, even the grease and mould came out. 
 

I couldn’t barely make out the marks on this under the green paint residue rubbing off the vickers lamp. You can still see some discolouration from where the dark mould was, but it looks a lot better now 
 

kind regards

g
 

 

Edited 28 May , 2024 by navydoc16

[Steve1871]

Thanks navydoc 16, good idea