Sgt John Barbosa - 1st Salford Pals - 15th Lancashire Fusiliers - KIA 1st July 1916

[pcrowland]

This is my first post and I hope that somebody can help me ? I recently acquired the death plaque for this brave man (#10555) who fell on the 1st July 1916 with so many of his pals at Thiepval. I have been able to garner the usual info from ancestry, findmypast, national archives, and cwgc, etc. I have also ordered the Steadman and Drum & Dawson books that I have seen recommended on this site. However, I am after some specialist advice and information from you "Salford Pals" experts out there. I would love to access some newspaper articles, photos, or service information that my internet search cannot uncover. Please share or point time in the right direction. Very sadly, John's 2 brothers also died in service - Michael # 9624 2nd Bn The Loyal North Lancs KIA 4/11/1914 Tanga Tanzania and Louis # 11031 (also) Lanc Fus Dows 24/1/1916 and buried at St. Sever Rouen. So my goal is to secure as much research as possible for John and then move onto his 2 brothers to honour these boys and their sacrifice.           

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

Once you have the Steadman book you will find in the Appendix the Platoon & Company he was in as well as a photo - I have copies of them - I'll take a look.

The Drum & Dowson booklet is excellent - they scoured the local newspapers so if he had appeared in the press with a photo, then the chances are he would be in the booklet. I have looked and he does not appear although some details are included about him in the main text.

The Booklet does tell you that he had another Brother named Joseph - with the very close number 10557 who also ended as a Sergeant - he was discharged due to wounds on 21/08/1917

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

Correction on the above - incredibly he isn't actually on the Salford Roll of Honour and so not in the Platoon Lists or Platoon Photographs. I don't why that is the case - somewhat strange as his number means he was one of the originals.

His Brother Joseph is - in 10 Platoon of C Company as is his other Brother Louis  - in 16 Platoon D Company

Russ

[pcrowland]

Thanks for the positive and quick response Russ which is very much appreciated !

I don't have the books in my possession yet as I only ordered them earlier today but I am looking forward to working my way through them .... and now to add another Barbosa brother to my research.

A great start.

Best Wishes 

Paul.    

[RussT]

You are welcome - I've done quite a bit of a study on the unit myself as one of my relatives served and died with the 15th LF - although he was not an original Pal.

I won't post the photo of his brother's Platoons here (unless you want me to) as you'll get them when you get the Steadman book.

Regards

Russ

[Matlock1418]

John BARBOSA, 10555, Lancashire Fusiliers

Pension records at WFA / Fold3 show:

• His father Mr J BARBOSA lived at 102 Foxteth Buildings / 102 Foxteth St, Off Harlow St, Liverpool
• His widow, Mary Catherine, remarried becoming LARKIN. Edit: Her LARKIN address [after 8/1928, which is the printer's mark on the PIC] was 20 Tamworth Street, Salford.

M

Edited 21 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
edit

[RussT]

Apparently the family were originally from Liverpool but were living in Salford at the time - that might help although with such an usual name I'm not sure it should be too difficult to piece the family history together.

Russ

 

[RussT]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

102 Foxteth Buildings / 102 Foxteth St, Off Harlow St, Liverpool

I think that is likely to be Toxteth.

It seems his bother Michael 9624 LNLR served under the alias John Shaw

 

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, RussT said:

I think that is likely to be Toxteth.

Yes, that does seem more likely [the hand-script is a bit iffy and I clearly wasn't thinking with Liverpool in mind]

M

Edited 21 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
typo

[RussT]

Brother Joseph won the MM - for gallantry in leading a bombing party in a raid on German trenches - London Gazette 3rd June 1916.

Plenty to go after on this family's story.

Russ

[pcrowland]

This is all great stuff and thanks .... I will be back onto the ancestry and findmypast sites this evening to trawl through the 1891-1901-1911 census records to build up a picture of the brothers' pre-war lives.

I am intrigued by the brother Michael who was a pre-war regular in the LNLR serving under an alias .... some misdeed led him to choose military service perhaps ?

Thanks again.

Paul. 

 

[RussT]

Further correction - he is mentioned on the NCO Roll - but was evidently not present when the photo was taken - see foot of this page.

[RussT]

2 minutes ago, pcrowland said:

This is all great stuff and thanks .... I will be back onto the ancestry and findmypast sites this evening to trawl through the 1891-1901-1911 census records to build up a picture of the brothers' pre-war lives.

I hope you can keep us posted on this thread and if you get stuck, there are plenty here to offer help/advice.

Normally, we advise to start a new thread for each individual soldier otherwise things can get a bit confusing but I am minded given it's all the same family who will obviously share lots of common background, then I think it better to keep it here all in one place.

Russ 

[RussT]

Michael Barbosa alias John Shaw's PIC (courtesy Fold/3)

 

[Matlock1418]

Again from WFA/Fold3

Joseph BARBOSSA/BARBOSA, 10557, Lancashire Fusiers

Discharged 21.8.17 - recorded as 3rd Bn [probably an admin posting]

Awarded 16/3 pw from 22.8.17 to 20.8.18 [Under the 1917 Royal Warrant for a Pension Class III NCO / Sgt this would seem to be the 50% degree of disability rate] - HIs claim was considered/marked DEAD 8/4/24 [by] but I note many other later annotations dated 1928-30.

He has a very similar number to that of John - looks quite like there may have been some shared service.

M

5 minutes ago, RussT said:

Now that does look like Foxteth St. [rather than Toxteth St.] - It may be that MoP clerks were having a hard time with that address.

M

Edited 21 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
add

[RussT]

If you have Ancestry, then here are the links to their Soldiers' Effects Records which also provide a little bit of family detail.

John:

UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk

Louis (states that he DoW in No 5 General Hospital):

UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk

Michael:

UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk

Russ

 

 

 

[pcrowland]

Yes I will Russ. I think that I will complete my research on John and post that and then create a similar theme for each of the other 3 brothers.

No doubt most of what I turn up will be known by you more experienced "Salford Pals" fact finders but it will hopefully be interesting to see a "block" of info on 4 brothers together.

Very interestingly, my preliminary research on the medal index cards for both boys who died in 1916 (John and Louis) appears to show that the VM for Louis and the 3 medals John was entitled to (1915 Star, BWM & VM) were all "returned" .... perhaps by a broken and devastated family ? I have heard of this taking place with other families and of soldiers throwing their medals away in grief.           

Best wishes

Paul.

PRIVATE LOUIS BARBOSA - 1st SP - 15th LANC FUS - DoWs 24th Jan 1916 - ancestry - MEDAL INDEX CARD.pdf SERJEANT JOHN BARBOSA - 1st SP - 15th LANC FUS - KIA 1st July 1916 - ancestry - MEDAL INDEX CARD.pdf

Edited 21 May , 2024 by pcrowland

[RussT]

Father John is shown as being born in Portugal in the 1901 census - all the family are living in Salford but kids born Liverpool

By the time of the 1911 census it looks like they are all dispersed - son John aged 26 and single is described as an able seaman in Falmouth.

There is another large Barbosa family in Toxteth headed by the father Antonis - also born Lisbon, Portugal - he might have been e.g. a brother of father John and a group of them came over and settled.

Russ

[mancpal]

It’s more likely that the family had moved from the address known to the military. We have gone ‘soft’ in the internet days where all kind of information is readily accessible. I doubt the authorities had the time or perhaps means to try and find the family. 

Simon

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, RussT said:

Louis (states that he DoW in No 5 General Hospital):

UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk

Louis BARBOSA, 11031, Lancashire Fusiliers

WFA/Fold3 PIC suggests he died of Disease, 24.1.16

M

[RussT]

Getting interesting - this thread tells us that Father John (102 Toxteth Street) drowned in a ship sunk by UB 64 in 1918 !

 

[Matlock1418]

35 minutes ago, RussT said:

 

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

Getting interesting - this thread tells us that Father John (102 Toxteth Street) drowned in a ship sunk by UB 64 in 1918 !

That explains the Clt Drowned [Claimant Drowned] on the bottom right of the 'John SHAW' / Michael BARBOSA PIC ... no wonder the medals might not have been delivered.

M

[RussT]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Louis BARBOSA, 11031, Lancashire Fusiliers

WFA/Fold3 PIC suggests he died of Disease, 24.1.16

Odd.

His Soldier Died Great War states DoW - but we know that record set has errors it.

But he is also on a WO Casualty List (dated 17/02/1916) as being previously reported missing now DoW - and those records are quite accurate - so on balance it does look like he did DoW.

 

[mancpal]

I just googled ‘Barbosa Salford’ and it appears the University of Warwick have something of the Barbosa family of “Liverpool and Salford”. I haven’t had chance to look at it yet.

Simon

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, RussT said:

16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Louis BARBOSA, 11031, Lancashire Fusiliers

WFA/Fold3 PIC suggests he died of Disease, 24.1.16

Odd.

His Soldier Died Great War states DoW - but we know that record set has errors it.

But he is also on a WO Casualty List (dated 17/02/1916) as being previously reported missing now DoW - and those records are quite accurate - so on balance it does look like he did DoW.

I understand your train of thought which is quite persuasive.

For the MoP it probably didn't matter a lot what the cause of death was, one way or another, other than it had to be attributable to service.  But it does make you wonder where the MoP got such information on 'disease' from.

M