Looking for info on how the British shipped their armies

[Marscaleb]

I'm writing a story, but there are some details about logistics that I have no idea about.

What kind of ships were the British using to transport personnel and material to the mainland, particularly in the first couple years of the war?  Were these transport ships armed and able to defend themselves? Or possibly were these actually battleships that they loaded with supplies?  Or were they unarmed vessels that were escorted by battleships, or what?

And how did these factors change according to their destination?  Shipping from England to France is a very short trip, but also when they're the closest to the Germans.  But Britain had a whole empire, and they were sending troops and supplies across the world.  How did things change when they were shipping out the the Mediterranean, or further?

And when the ships got to their destination, who was handling things from there?  At the very least, we're talking Navy ships transporting Army supplies and personnel.  Who was in charge at what point?  I would assume they were unloaded at Navy bases, but everything was turned over to Army at some point.  I have a scene where some characters are transitioning between the boat to the convoy that takes them to the front, and I'm not sure if there would be Navy or Army officers over them and organizing where people are.

[seaJane]

6 hours ago, Marscaleb said:

Navy ships

This would have been Mercantile Marine (Board of Trade) ships taken up from trade rather than Royal Navy warships.

This Historic England site may be of some help (check out also the links on the left-hand side) but a visit to the Imperial War Museum or your local public library (in my experience usually with something of a Great War non-fiction section) will also be useful.

https://historicengland.org.uk/research/current/discover-and-understand/military/first-world-war-home-front/land/transport/

 

[PRC]

6 hours ago, Marscaleb said:

I have a scene where some characters are transitioning between the boat to the convoy that takes them to the front, and I'm not sure if there would be Navy or Army officers over them and organizing where people are.

Probably would help if you were clearer what you were after in connection with your storyline - troops or supplies, if troops are they a unit deploying overseas or replacement drafts, where are they coming from and going to, and at what stage of the war.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

22 hours ago, Marscaleb said:

What kind of ships were the British using to transport personnel and material to the mainland, particularly in the first couple years of the war? 

To give you a start, the 'Long Long Trail' has some answers for you. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/7th-division-from-landing-to-first-ypres-1914/

Just a matter of doing some reading.

You can search for the names of the ships given in the first few paragraphs on google or whatever you use, then you will have an idea.

Some of the War Diaries tell of the ships names. Free to view/download from the National Archives. This link takes you to the 16th Infantry Brigade 6th Division, it is what I was looking at at the time.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053209

You will find the 7th Division War Diaries AKA WD on the National Archives site, as mentioned in the 'Long Long Trail' article. Here is a link to the 20th Infantry Brigade Headquarters 7th Division.https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053283

I have not read it myself yet so I don't know what you will find in there, all part of the adventure.

Regards,

Bob.

 

[KizmeRD]

The question(s) raised in the original post are not easily answered as they are somewhat vague and far reaching, however there’s a big difference between getting units out to France and Belgium in the first place, and thereafter sustaining hundreds of thousands of soldiers for a period of years with sufficient supplies to enable them to engage in large scale battles. The transport operations were on such a scale that it is hard to imagine. It was officially stated in the War Cabinet Report for the year 1917 that over 7,000 personnel were being transported, and more than 30,000 tons of stores and supplies were being sent daily to France purely to maintain the army - transporting everything from medical personnel & supplies, replacement drafts/soldiers returning from leave, horses, vehicles, artillery pieces, ammunition, fuel, food, building materials etc etc. The highest number of sailings in one day was in 1917 when 53 merchant ships transported a total of 84,500 tons of war supplies. The work was coordinated by the Principal Naval Transport Officer and his staff at the ports of loading and discharge. Late in the war, additional cross-Channel transportation capacity was also supplied by tugs & barges and even two Ro-Ro ferry services (from Richborough and Southampton). 

Then there were other theatres of war to serve too, everywhere from Northern Russia to Africa, Mediterranean and Mesopotamia - and troop transport ships were regularly sailing to/from NZ/Australia, Canada, India and South Africa.

The ships used to transport supplies were, for the most part, ordinary merchant marine vessels, some taken into direct Government service, others simply chartered (it certainly wasn’t a job given to Battleships!).

MB

Edited 20 May , 2024 by KizmeRD

[GreyC]

Hi great insight and impressive numbers.

I wonder if they could profit from their experiences in organising such an operation when they had to get back the troops from Dunkirk in WW2.

Do you know how many troopships (approx. or exactly)-  those with the green (?) line around the hull - were in service for the British in WW1?

Thank You!

GreyC

[KizmeRD]

3 hours ago, GreyC said:

Do you know how many troopships (approx. or exactly)-  those with the green (?) line around the hull - were in service for the British in WW1?

A Green Line around the hull was one of the special markings designating a hospital ship (not a troop transport) - see photo below
Ordinary troopships had no distinguishing features and had no rights to protection under international law.

MB

[GreyC]

Thank you, MB .

I only have a small collection of postcards depicting ships of the British Navy, among them around 30 cards with hospital ships on them (WW1 and WW2).

Three of them show the NEVESA, designated in print as hospital ship, showing the green band and the red cross. Two show her only with a band and identified in print as HM Transport NEVESA.

That´s why I asked.

Best,

GreyC

[KizmeRD]

Yes, the fact that the British sometimes used the same ships in different roles, at different times in the war, made for a confusing state of affairs, leading to German accusations that designated hospital ships were improperly being used to transport troops.

MB

[GreyC]

Thank you!

So did she wear a stripe because it was easier to add and delete a cross when function changed? And was this a practice for other ships that served dual purposes, too?

Here:

http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/galleryship011.htm

are photos of her in WW1 and in 1938 also with no cross and stripe as troop-carier.

GreyC

[KizmeRD]

No, the special markings of a hospital ship (i.e. the green line painted around hull and large red crosses) were determined by Internal law (The Hague Convention). In addition designated Hospital Ships were declared as such to the International Red Cross, and their identity and status was formally notified to the other side in the conflict.

The BRITANNIC was one such vessel used originally as a troop transport (for the Gallipoli Campaign), then afterwards as a hospital ship.

Due to alleged misuse of Allied hospital ships for military purposes, the German government issued a memorandum dated 29 January 1917 giving notice that in future, any hospital ship operating in the area of the southern North Sea and English Channel would be regarded as a belligerent and be liable to attack. Later a second memorandum was issued dated 31 March 1917 extending the area where hospital ships could be targeted to include the Mediterranean.

As a result of the above, hospital ships were soon being torpedoed on a fairly regular basis, ASTURIAS 20 March 1917, GLOUCESTER CASTLE 30 March 1917, INDIA (Greek) 12 April 1917, LANFRANC 17 April 1917, DONEGAL 26 April 1917, DOVER CASTLE 26 May 1917 and so on.

Unsurprisingly therefore, during late Spring/early Summer 1917, many (but not all) British Hospital Ships were simply re-designated ‘Ambulance Transports’ - meaning that these ships were no longer officially entitled to international protection under the Hague X Convention (which, in reality, they weren’t getting anyway). All former ‘hospital ships’ were immediately repainted (hull no longer painted white, no green stripe and no large red crosses) and henceforth operated with the status of ordinary merchant ships - meaning that they were no longer subject to independent inspection, and became free to adopt regular defences measures against U-boat attack i.e. it was not required that they sail fully illuminated at night, and they were now free to fit defensive armament, if deemed appropriate.

MB

 

Edited 21 May , 2024 by KizmeRD

[GreyC]

Thanks a lot!

GreyC

[Matlock1418]

A number of troop transports were seized prizes from German companies - For wartime use they were renamed and commonly given a new name commencing with "Germans"

E.g.

• HMT Germanstsend [ex-Lutzow] - a relative was transported from Canada aboard her [Edit H U N T S E N D]

and many others similarly sourced and named Germans...

M

Edit: Marvellous - The magic of web-autocorrect has renamed these "H U N" vessels as "Germans" !!! 

Edited 21 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
edit

[Marscaleb]

On 19/05/2024 at 16:19, PRC said:

Probably would help if you were clearer what you were after in connection with your storyline - troops or supplies, if troops are they a unit deploying overseas or replacement drafts, where are they coming from and going to, and at what stage of the war.

On 20/05/2024 at 10:10, KizmeRD said:

The question(s) raised in the original post are not easily answered as they are somewhat vague and far reaching,

Sorry; the vague nature is largely a result of the flexible nature of what I'm writing.  I had originally conceived of this as being a last-minute addition and these troops were placed on something like a battleship or a dreadnaught just because that was the vessel that was leaving at the time.  (It's just nine people and some special supplies.)  But then I had this idea for a follow-up scene where there were delays with getting their supplies unloaded, and ultimately the squad has to wait for a later convoy because they don't have all their equipment.  But for that to make any sense, it would have to be a transport ship that was carrying a lot of supplies.

So I've got room to shift things around as needed.

What I am looking for is a clearer understanding of what kind of vessel they are on, (or rather, what kind of ships they COULD be on,) because I have a sequence where the squad's commander convinces the ship's captain to let them run a mock battle on the deck.  For that sequence I need to know what kind of layout the ship has, and what's on the deck.  I originally was planning on it being a battleship of some kind so they could hide behind deck guns.  But I have to make changes, so I'm trying to find out what's available and what's reasonable.  For story reasons, I'm looking for a military vessel.

Were there not Royal Navy transport ships used?  I get using merchant ships as well, (considering the scale of the war,) but certainly the navy had its own transport vessels, did they not?

 

[KizmeRD]

If it’s only nine soldiers, they could quite easily be transported in anything from a minesweeper to a destroyer, but I can’t see a battleship being spared to act as a taxi service for such a small and insignificant unit of men - it’s only fiction you’re writing, with no basis in fact, so why not make up anything you want that fits the storyline?

I would however have thought it unlikely that such a tiny unit would have had anyone more senior than a corporal in charge, so I can’t see him carrying any influence at all over a commanding officer of a Royal Naval warship, or, for that matter, even the Captain of a humble merchantman on government service. And if your guys weren’t already trained for their mission before arriving at the departure port, then there’s little opportunity to be playing silly ******* during the channel crossing itself- staging mock battles on deck would be totally out of the question.

(The usual means of transportation for small groups of military men heading to France would have been the wartime cross-channel ferry service operating out of Folkestone).

MB

[Marscaleb]

It is fiction, and there's a lot of details I've skipped over because this isn't the time/place to be promoting my fictional/alt-history/fantasy/whatever.

Yes I can just make up whatever, but I'd like to get information on the real history, because 1) learning the real history is fun and interesting, and 2) historical settings like this are somewhat niche, and most of the readers I could attract are well-versed on history and know some of this stuff better than I do.  That goes double - nay, septuple - for naval affairs; I know ships float and that's about it.

Part of why I want it to be a military ship is because the military commanders could connect better with each other, and the naval officer would recognize his plight of not being given the time to prepare that he wanted.

They're also going a bit further out than to France, which is why I would expect them to have a battleship escort.

[KizmeRD]

If you’re happy with a battleship, then OK - I guess your small section of soldiers must be highly important to the war effort, they must be, since Earl Kitchener only warranted an armoured cruiser (and look what happened to him!).

MB

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Marscaleb said:

Sorry; the vague nature is largely a result of the flexible nature of what I'm writing.  I had originally conceived of this as being a last-minute addition and these troops were placed on something like a battleship or a dreadnaught just because that was the vessel that was leaving at the time.  (It's just nine people and some special supplies.)  But then I had this idea for a follow-up scene where there were delays with getting their supplies unloaded, and ultimately the squad has to wait for a later convoy because they don't have all their equipment.  But for that to make any sense, it would have to be a transport ship that was carrying a lot of supplies.

I'd suggest you start with clarity about the "special supplies" - millions of pounds worth of gold to Russia and a Government Minister, (look up HMS Hampshire), or the transport of top secret equipment might require a military escort and transport aboard a warship - especially if the equipment is one of a kind and difficult to replace. But that wouldn't be incidental to getting a replacement draft to a theatre of war. Most likely those guard troops would be returning back after their services were no longer needed for guard duty. And an army armed guard rather than marines on a navy ship would not be treated well is my understanding

And all too often the troopships, being passenger ships owned or hired by the government, sailed alone not in convoys because of the belief that their superior speed negated the submarine threat - look up Hired Transport Royal Edward - leaving the slower cargo ships to sail in convoy. The initial deployment of Divisions - to France, to Gallipoli, to Salonika, was usually done in convoys of such ships but even then support elements like Medical, Veterinary and even Artillery had to follow on behind. The Royal Edward was carrying both replacement drafts for Battalions involved in the initial landing months earlier but also two of the field ambulances for Divisions that had landed at Suvla Bay a week or so before.

As the war went on these troopships would contain more and more of a mixture - you only have to look at the range of units commerated on the Chatby Memorial in Egypt. The individual groups might be of a size you're thinking of and for the longer journeys there would be routine training on deck anyway. Certainly earlier in the war this might include rifle and machine gun training.

This was soon an industrial war and 10 men wouldn't feature if they were just a replacement draft - and a draft wouldn't be that small. They'd be held back until there were sufficient to make a full shipload - and more likely they wouldn't be released from camp for shipping overseas until a shipfull had already been out together by those responsible for organising these things. Increasingly from 1916 onwards men trainined in Training Reserve Regiments instead of a named Regiments Battalions. Even those who did train in the UK - either as new recruits or the recovered sick \ wounded - and were sent out to a Theatre of War would then report to an Infantry Base Depot and from there be posted wherever they were needed. Drafts from one unit would be broken up or merged with drafts from elsewhere as required. So a mix onboard was to be expected from late 1915 onwards - hence my question about when.

As to where - as the war went on there was an overland route from the UK across the Channel, through France to Italy for the troops there, down to Taranto for transhipment to Egypt and from the Base Area there transhipment on to Palestine, Salonika and via the Suez Canal, Mesopotamia, East Africa and India. So a significant part of the journey both for men and supplies might not have been via ship. Of course if the supplies were coming from elsewhere or men were moving between Theatres of War - the evacuation of Gallipoli, the move of the Anzacs to France from Egypt, the rapid move of Divisions from the Middle East to France following the losses of the 1918 German Spring Offensive - these all have their own issues and local arrangements.

As for going to France from the UK - a couple of hours and usually at night, with no lights and minimal noise and navy presence. Anyone playing silly b****rs on deck might well end up overboard.

So many scenarios that it is difficult to know where to stop. But short of super duper war winning and irreplaceable supplies and therefore some well trained quality men to accompany it, I think you can rule out using a battleship for your storyline.

Cheers,
Peter

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

An interesting study of this is the first Fleet that brought the AIF to Egypt in 1914/15

How they asembled the ships from all sources, at many ports, loaded them, and moved to Albany to reasemble the fleet for the crossing

During which the Sydney had that encounter with Emden.

There a re a number of books of this Fleet and its ships and there use during the war.

[Marscaleb]

Yeah, in my most recent revision I've changed the ship to being a supply transport ship.

I'll just say that there are some crates on the deck that they use to hide behind for the training exercise.

the idea of riding a battleship was never about "important cargo" but just because it was the ship that was there and leaving at the time.  It was the exact opposite of saying they were important; they were just crammed in on the next ride.

[seaJane]

13 hours ago, Marscaleb said:

riding a battleship was never about "important cargo" but just because it was the ship that was there and leaving at the time.  It was the exact opposite of saying they were important; they were just crammed in on the next ride.

The main trouble with that from the warship's point of view would be finding them accommodation, finding them rations out of a precisely-allocated victualling order, and having men ignorant of naval procedures and terminology cluttering up the ship if "Action Stations" was called - so your transport idea is much better and more likely. Happy writing!

sJ

[JMB1943]

Marscaleb,

I sent you a PM a couple of days ago, regarding a real-life scenario found on the GWF.

Regards,

JMB