Clues re uniform of Scottish soldier of Huntly

[tamiwell]

Hello, I love this photograph of a Scottish soldier in WW1.  It was taken at Huntly.  I was wondering if there might be any clues re what unit he served with?  I'm not familiar at all with the Scottish uniforms at that time.  Any information would be amazing.  Thank you!

Edited 16 May , 2024 by tamiwell
adding image of flashes (?)

[GWF1967]

26 minutes ago, tamiwell said:

Hello, I love this photograph of a Scottish soldier in WW1.  It was taken at Huntly.  I was wondering if there might be any clues re what unit he served with?  I'm not familiar at all with the Scottish uniforms at that time.  Any information would be amazing.  Thank you!

@FROGSMILE may be able to identify the tartan on show.   

[6RRF]

Its plain Government tartan without any overstripes so he must either be Black Watch or Argylls. The badge isn't clear but looks to be the Argylls

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Its plain Government tartan without any overstripes so he must either be Black Watch or Argylls. The badge isn't clear but looks to be the Argylls

I agree with m’learned friend that the government tartan is reminiscent of A&SH, if not Black Watch, but the hose tab bells don’t match (see images of A&SH) so I’m wondering if he might perhaps be from the 9th HLI, or 9th Royal Scot’s [both dressed as Highlanders] TF battalions that wore government tartan**.  All that said, from what we can see of the badge, it does look more A&SH than the others mentioned, so I’m unsure what he is as yet.

**Afternote: from examination of other images it’s clear that 9th HLI did not favour bells on their hose tabs.

Edited 16 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

9th Royal Scots (the Dandy 9th) did favour belled hose tabs, which suggests it’s a possibility.  Perhaps @Neill Gilhooley can comment.

Edited 16 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I thinks that your soldier is a Gordon Highlander. The garter flashes look correct and would appear as a pair of "belled" flashes at each hose top. The badge on his Tam O' Shanter looks about the right sort of size for a Gordon's badge, and while the kilt has no apparent distinguishing elements, the yellow stripe does not show up on black and white photos. In addition, a Huntly photographer is within the correct geographic area to suggest a Gordon Highlander.

I hope that this helps.

Owain.

[Neill Gilhooley]

I'm no good at this game!

The 9th Royal Scots were in Hunting Stewart but had the same flashes as the Gordon Highlanders (two red tabs – double pointed with one belled loop).

[Centre and right images are 9RS]

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, o j kirby said:

Hello,

I thinks that your soldier is a Gordon Highlander. The garter flashes look correct and would appear as a pair of "belled" flashes at each hose top. The badge on his Tam O' Shanter looks about the right sort of size for a Gordon's badge, and while the kilt has no apparent distinguishing elements, the yellow stripe does not show up on black and white photos. In addition, a Huntly photographer is within the correct geographic area to suggest a Gordon Highlander.

I hope that this helps.

Owain.

That seems a possibility.  What do @4thGordons and @gordon92 think?

[gordon92]

33 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That seems a possibility.  What do @4thGordons and @gordon92 think?

As @o j kirby has noted, the geography favors a Gordon Highlander. Huntly is in the heart of Aberdeenshire.  The location, hose flashes, imaging of the kilt, and what we can see of the cap badge all point to a Gordon overwhelmingly.

[6RRF]

I'm still a just little bit cautious. Everything except the kilt certainly points to a Gordon. The trouble is that the yellow overstripe is a bit fugitive. The white one Mackenzie one displayed by the HLI and Seaforths shows clearly enough in black and white, but not so the Gordons' yellow. It frequently doesn't, especially at a distance or in poor light, but this one seems very clear. 

[4thGordons]

FWIW I would say Gordon. Although it is hard to be 100% of course and I too am never very confident at these games

My major pointer would be the tartan itself rather than the orthochromatic colour rendering:

Here is the a section of the original post, a 9RS kilt (from the r/h pic above) and a known Gordon from my collection.

    

Original                               9 RS

  

Original                             known Gordon (from my collection)

looking at the pattern in the tartan (thick lines and double thin lines - the original appears much more like Gordon to me)

(I also recognize the right hand 9RS image as I own a print of it!)

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

@tamiwell - Based on a combination of the body of recent opinion in this thread, and a process of elimination, I think it likely that the subject soldier whose photo you posted is indeed a Gordon Highlander.  Although it’s a particularly poor view of his bonnet badge there’s no doubt that, as pointed out in many past threads, the yellow over check on the Gordon’s sett does not show up in WW1 contemporary film.  The enclosed examples once again confirm this.  With that salient fact, and the ruling out of 9th Royal Scots, plus the belled hose tabs, almost certainly confirm the Gordon Highlanders identity.

Many thanks to all contributors for your valuable input concerning this more difficult than usual photograph.

Edited 18 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

FWIW I would say Gordon. Although it is hard to be 100% of course and I too am never very confident at these games

My major pointer would be the tartan itself rather than the orthochromatic colour rendering:

Here is the a section of the original post, a 9RS kilt (from the r/h pic above) and a known Gordon from my collection.

    

Original                               9 RS

  

Original                             known Gordon (from my collection)

looking at the pattern in the tartan (thick lines and double thin lines - the original appears much more like Gordon to me)

(I also recognize the right hand 9RS image as I own a print of it!)

Chris

Great pics, Chris.  A peripheral point: Your upper right photo clearly shows that the Hunting Stewart tartan is not based on the Government tartan while the Gordon tartan is (with yellow overstripes, of course).

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Great pics, Chris.  A peripheral point: Your upper right photo clearly shows that the Hunting Stewart tartan is not based on the Government tartan while the Gordon tartan is (with yellow overstripes, of course).

Thanks Mike and Neill for the timely reminder regarding Hunting Tartan, which we have collectively oft mentioned in past threads of course.  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/307867-photo-the-crichton-father-and-sons-identifying-regiment/#comment-3253066

Incidentally it has always puzzled me a little how that tartan’s white overcheck, like the yellow, also did not show in orthochromatic film of those times, when it does so usually in white grid of the MacKenzie sett.

Edited 18 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Mike and Neill for the timely reminder regarding Hunting Tartan, which we have collectively oft mentioned in past threads of course.  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/307867-photo-the-crichton-father-and-sons-identifying-regiment/#comment-3253066

Incidentally it has always puzzled me a little how that tartan’s white overcheck, like the yellow, also did not show in orthochromatic film of those times, when it does so usually in white grid of the MacKenzie sett.

Frogsmile...... I am afraid that this often seen image of the 9RS Sergeant is an incorrect representation of the Hunting Stewart tartan kilt.  This tartan had red and yellow overstripes. So, your instincts (about not seeing the white) have not abandoned you! See also https://www.theroyalscots.co.uk/badges-and-tartan/

 

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Frogsmile...... I am afraid that this often seen image of the 9RS Sergeant is an incorrect representation of the Hunting Stewart tartan kilt.  This tartan had red and yellow overstripes. So, your instincts (about not seeing the white) have not abandoned you! See also https://www.theroyalscots.co.uk/badges-and-tartan/

 

Thanks Mike, I’m glad to learn that my instincts are intact.  Upon reflection if I’d spent more time thinking deeply about it I’d have remembered that there was no white in the Hunting Stewart tartan.  I’m not unfamiliar with it, or indeed the other tartans, all of which were regularly seen close around me among the permanent staff at the School of Infantry circa 1982-1990. 

Edited 18 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[tamiwell]

So sorry for the late reply but I'm so thrilled that you have all so kindly helped me solve this mystery!  It's a gorgeous photograph and I'm so pleased to know now what unit he was attached to.  I really enjoyed seeing the other lovely photographs you referenced on here too.  Again, I have to say how very grateful I am to the very knowledgeable and generous people on this forum, who have helped me out time and time again to discover more about the brave men in my precious photographs.  

[tamiwell]

On 18/05/2024 at 06:24, FROGSMILE said:

@tamiwell - Based on a combination of the body of recent opinion in this thread, and a process of elimination, I think it likely that the subject soldier whose photo you posted is indeed a Gordon Highlander.  Although it’s a particularly poor view of his bonnet badge there’s no doubt that, as pointed out in many past threads, the yellow over check on the Gordon’s sett does not show up in WW1 contemporary film.  The enclosed examples once again confirm this.  With that salient fact, and the ruling out of 9th Royal Scots, plus the belled hose tabs, almost certainly confirm the Gordon Highlanders identity.

Many thanks to all contributors for your valuable input concerning this more difficult than usual photograph.

Frogsmile I've lost count of the amount of times you've been kind enough to help me with my queries!  Much appreciated!  I love these photographs - the portrait in the middle is especially lovely!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, tamiwell said:

Frogsmile I've lost count of the amount of times you've been kind enough to help me with my queries!  Much appreciated!  I love these photographs - the portrait in the middle is especially lovely!

It’s always a pleasure to help a fellow enthusiast tamiwell. 👍

[6RRF]

It may be a silly question this far into the thread, but I take it that there are no clues as to who he might be ?

[tamiwell]

No sorry, there wasn't a name or any other detail written on the back of the photograph unfortunately.  Probably a Huntly lad, but I'm not sure how many men signed up from this town for service....might be a needle in a haystack.  I wish I knew!